SEO Cash Flow - Made with Clipchamp
===
[00:00:00] Olga: SEO sly, SEO done right. I'm Olga Zarr, an SEO consultant in SEO since 2012. Don't forget to subscribe to learn SEO for free with me. Now let's get into the show. Hello everyone, it's Olga Zarr. This is SEO Cashflow with me and Miriam Josier. Miriam, how are you doing today? Long time no see.
[00:00:26] Myriam: Oh, it's, it's been a minute and a lot of things have been going on.
[00:00:30] Myriam: Not just in my life, not just in the industry. Everything is moving rather fast. So it's, things have been changing. There's been quite a few new challenges, some old ones. And that's why we are meeting up, you and I, to talk about One very interesting topic. I'll let you introduce it.
[00:00:52] Olga: Okay, so the topic is, let's say a company reaches out to me and they need help from me.
[00:00:59] Olga: SEO help, SEO consulting help. They reach out to me, they tell me, Olga, we need your help. uh, do you have time? And I say, yes, yes, I do have time. I can help you. And then they reply saying, okay, so before we work with you, we want you to go through this evaluation test. We want you to do this intelligence test, this cognitive behavior test, and all of those other tests so that we are sure that you are actually the right person to do the job.
[00:01:32] Olga: And the question is, should Do that or should I, what's going on? Or should I not do it? You're celebrating. And I have prepared like three scenarios. Yes, yes, but, and no. And who's going to start the rants? Well,
[00:01:54] Myriam: come on, you said rant and here you come being prepared like I have three scenarios. Yes. Yes.
[00:02:00] Myriam: Here's a Decision tree. I am just here for the rant. Okay, like when I hear stuff like this, I do not make a decision tree I I have a visceral reaction instead. Um What I mean by this is um, this will happen to you at any time different points in your life, especially if you work in SEO, but not just. Okay.
[00:02:23] Myriam: So let's, let's take it one step back because you're coming at us with a lot of information. You're coming at us with somebody came to see you to ask you to do something to help them. And then when you say yes, they come back to you with a that was not in the horizon. So on the horizon. So has this ever happened to you?
[00:02:47] Myriam: I'm very curious because I want to know like. This, this is happening to quite a few folks in the tech industry, not the SEO industry. Has anyone ever reached out to you going, Hey, we have this conference and we'd love to have you, and they invite you to what you think is to be a speaker, but they get back to you with a form to pitch instead.
[00:03:11] Myriam: They're like, we'd like to invite you to get in line and pitch. So has this happened to you before? Yeah, it's
[00:03:17] Olga: happened.
[00:03:17] Myriam: So, so this is a smaller, less risky. start of the conversation, not quite a rant. So how do you react?
[00:03:28] Olga: So my first reaction was like, what the fuck?
[00:03:35] Olga: Maybe, but I am like this impulsive ADHD type of person who like, loses her very fast.
[00:03:47] Myriam: So I would counter and say that you are the type of ADHD person that has impulsive reactions, but also you learn to be prepared and you come with a decision tree. So I'm going to take over that impulsive part and try to explain why it feels this way.
[00:04:05] Myriam: Because when you organize an event, you don't think that way. You think I need to sell tickets. I need to get some names that are recognized. Like, let me get started. I want people to feed into my process. Like you have your process, which is people have to pitch, they have to be selected, etc. Us, on the other side, we are not burdened by your process.
[00:04:28] Myriam: We don't care. We have our own processes. So we need you to fit into our model. Okay, so this is where the friction happens. And to me, being invited to Show up, dress to impress, to wait in line at a club, to have maybe the bouncer let me in, does not feel like such a VIP invitation. It feels like, hey, you know what?
[00:04:53] Myriam: If I wanted to pitch, I would have already pitched. If you wanted me to pay attention to your event, Maybe you should have reached out and asked something else and I'm like if you're gonna Do a thing socially that I think we agreed upon an interaction And then you pull a bait and switch and you ask me something else.
[00:05:15] Myriam: It's bound to create friction. That doesn't mean I will always Say no. That doesn't mean I will be rude. I'm just explaining what's going on in my mind. And Olga, before we go further, I have a tip when that happens. Now I just answer, Awesome! Um, when is the event? Who are you targeting? And I'll make sure to give you a shout out on social media when you need to sell some tickets.
[00:05:40] Myriam: AKA, thank you, no thank you. I'm still being gracious though, like I'm giving you some visibility. If you thought there was an alignment between us, Let's go, the end, no harm, no foul, like they cannot be mad and I'm not mad, the end. And the reason why I started with this is that it leads into a good segue, right?
[00:06:03] Myriam: Their system versus our own frameworks. And when it comes to someone reaching out to you, your own framework is you were lead, you came to me, you looked for me. We agreed I can help you. Okay. That was the interaction, and here you are pulling a bait and switch, and if I react impossibly then I'm going to sound like I'm mad and like we should not be working together, which is not something I want.
[00:06:34] Myriam: We established there's a fit, but if I tell you yes, this has a lot of implications for me. It has implications regarding my comfort, my Time, because it's costing me money to do these things, and um, how about you have no fucking business being in my personal and medical life? I don't want to give you this information, and it's so out of left field that I don't even know where you have gone to ask me this, like what is your reality?
[00:07:05] Myriam: So, ooh, that's causing stress. Like, how do we How do we handle all of this? And I pass it off to you to tell me, is your decision tree aligned on this? Or have I forgotten a few things?
[00:07:18] Olga: Yeah, it is. It is. So my first reaction was, like I said, and then I sat down, kind of thought about it. And decided that, okay, in that case, I will be honest, I will simply say, okay, I understand, this is your process, I'm not going to do this, because I don't have time for that, and this is not something I do.
[00:07:40] Olga: I do SEO, I don't do tests like that. If I wanted to do them, then I would apply for a job, which requires that, because a lot of, from what I learned, a lot of positions require this kind of testing, so this is more like this. employee type of relationship, not necessarily hiring an SEO consultant. So, and being honest and not being desperate.
[00:08:05] Olga: So if they say no, I'm okay. If they say, okay, we are backing off, we kind of cross the line, then it is okay too. And everyone is, and it is kind of a, a win win. So in my current situation, in my current circumstances, this, this is my answer, but I can imagine different scenarios. Where you could potentially say yes, or you could say yes, but, and I will explore those in a second.
[00:08:33] Myriam: I, wait, wait, wait, wait, hang on, because, okay, you delivered here. We need, we need to unfurl this, okay? So, first of all, um, it's not just you being honest, it's you being confident and setting boundaries, going, hey, by the way, like, this is my job. I'm confident in my job. This is what I do. Not only that, but how you do it.
[00:08:51] Myriam: Like, Hey, in case you have forgotten, maybe you have the wrong mold. You have the wrong system because I'm an SEO consultant. I am not an employee. So this is one of those things that I even forgot to talk about. Sometimes people will try to treat you like an employee when you're not, or sometimes they will try to treat you like you're a freelancer when you're an employee, because it benefits them.
[00:09:16] Myriam: So you, Um, you really do need to set boundaries as you said, like politely, this is how I operate. So you have your system. I have mine. Let's find a way to interface because if we can't, I'm a bit worried because this is going to lead to problems. There's a reason why I have my system. So when are the cases where you think somebody should not say no automatically?
[00:09:43] Myriam: But really, like, take the time to decide.
[00:09:46] Olga: So if you are on a, like, earlier in your path and you don't have, like, a queue of clients, a waitlist waiting for you to grab your time, you are not as busy as we are, you still have time, you're still kind of building your, your career as an SEO consultant, you could potentially consider doing that because it may simply end up lending you a client.
[00:10:14] Olga: money, something that you maybe need at this, at this time. A potential solution as well is to tell them, okay, I will do it, but you will have to pay for my time doing that. So this could be potentially something like meeting in the middle, assuming you have, you have time to do that actually. But if I were like 10 years before, or even a year, eight years before, I would probably Do that.
[00:10:43] Olga: I think because I wouldn't be that confident. I would be desperate to get, get paid. So, so here's a
[00:10:51] Myriam: tip though. Here's a tip. So you do not sound desperate. You breathe in and you basically go, um, I will be adding this to my estimate. The time that's required for this as part of the project management. I mean, this is, this, this is part of it.
[00:11:10] Myriam: And if we do not end up working together, you will be billed separately for these hours. Yeah. Because as soon as you put a price tag to this, some folks may go, Oh, you know what? It's not necessary. All of a sudden they have to reconsider this and tell you, Oh, it wasn't that necessary.
[00:11:31] Olga: So this was actually the case I had.
[00:11:35] Olga: Uh, I replied in this kind of way where I set boundaries and then they said, it isn't really necessary. We're okay. We, we, we don't have to do it. So and I am this kind of, I have perfectionist tendencies. So when I started reading about those tests, it turned out that there are courses teaching you how to take those tests to kind of pass.
[00:12:04] Olga: When I started looking at that, then, oh Jesus, I would have to spend a week learning how to do those tests. And this is like totally pointless, right? And,
[00:12:14] Myriam: and I, I had someone that I knew and I mean, I still know them. They have an agency, an SEO agency. Okay. But they also make websites and like, Oh, web agents.
[00:12:24] Myriam: Let's just say that. And they told me like, every person I'm going to hire will have to take a personality test. And I was like, If this was a situation, cause this person was looking to hire me and that was not a fit. We, we became acquaintances and exchanged. And I was like, you asked me to come to then tell me it's not a consulting gig.
[00:12:53] Myriam: You don't want me to train your teams. You'd like to hire me. And then you were like, Hey, personality test. And I was like, I asked for nothing. Okay. And the personality test, I looked into it like you, and I was like, This is horoscopes for corporates. This is not Relating, like, if you're gonna use this test as the main cultural company fit test, I mean, it works.
[00:13:23] Myriam: You're excluding me, that's good, like, it fits, fine, but it's one of those things where you go, um, your test, I also question why it's there, like, it, it, it feels almost like a red flag sometimes, and I'm not saying to everyone. But as soon as I see a test, just like yo, I'm like, okay, what, what am I supposed to pass at the end of the day?
[00:13:46] Myriam: Like, what's going on? And so we, we know based on our conversation, the first step of going, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And saying politely, thank you for thinking of me. I'm going to offer you a consolation prize and leaving on good terms. It works. We know that setting boundaries, like you explained, So worse, like success.
[00:14:11] Myriam: We've had success in our lives with this. Now, what are the other scenarios?
[00:14:16] Olga: So for me, I, I basically have, like, there is also a scenario where you weren't really polite and they kind of, and this ended up in a not really nice way. So I actually had this type of situation, uh, recently. It is a different situation, but it kind of Someone booked a discovery call with me, and they just booked a call, and they didn't, like, say anything what they want.
[00:14:48] Olga: They just gave the URL, and before the call, like, 24 hours before that, I reached out to them asking, like, what do they need? Are they going to show up for the call? Because in the invitation they didn't like say yes. I didn't receive any reply, so I cancelled the call the next morning. And then I get an email with a quite a furious message, like, why are you cancelling our call?
[00:15:16] Olga: Based on what? Because I didn't answer you, you are cancelling this? Like, why? What the fuck? It was like this type of energy and then I thought like, what, was I supposed to like show up? And because it happened many times that someone booked a call and they didn't show up or forgot or whatever So this is my time.
[00:15:37] Olga: You, you, you cannot really reply me with more details And you're expecting me to just show up and give my time for free? No.
[00:15:47] Myriam: And You know, this person is not hiring you to figure out their business objective. You're not a business coach here. So you, once again, your system is very simple. You screen people at the door by asking this and they cannot reply, but trust them.
[00:16:04] Myriam: They'll show up and also trust them. You'll have a good work relationship with them and trust them. They'll respect you and your time. No, you're showing me the opposite. Actually, you, you, this is not working. So. When you have that scenario where people are aggressive and make many demands of you, just feel very comfortable saying no, even if it's uncomfortable.
[00:16:28] Myriam: So this ties into, I know we've talked about this before, but you have to be comfortable Being uncomfortable, but in the sense that you have to be willing to be the biggest asshole in the conversation sometimes, and this means saying no. So I have, um, a non ex client of mine in the sense that it's. A big entrepreneur hub.
[00:16:56] Myriam: I worked with them, created classes for them, signed an agreement, got on it, more good. Okay. Fast forward. If a year or so, another part of the entrepreneur hub, the women's. portion asks me if they can reuse my videos and pay me for it. Okay, I'm all for helping. Um, three years later, I get a message saying, Hi, we need you to retroactively sign this contract that gives us the right to translate your trainings to make them available to more people.
[00:17:34] Myriam: And also we're going to like recut the stuff and some of it may be public for promotional purposes. And also we're gonna like do this and this and this and we basically own the video, the rights, but all the content in the video so we can reuse it. And I was like, and I felt this, this energy, as you said, like frantic, but also this is the way things are, this is the process, it's normal, like, why can't you do this?
[00:18:05] Myriam: You know, like, it's, and I replied, okay, but This portion, this portion, this portion, this portion is no go. I'm a trainer and you're basically telling me that you're going to go against the initial agreement, make this public. Not only that, but I also speak English. Why would you hire someone else to translate?
[00:18:22] Myriam: AKA, it's my voice, my image, like, um, if anything, at least offer me to do it, but I know you're probably going to ask a machine. Okay. And then I'm like, you realize that those are my courses. They're my intellectual property. I sell them to other people. I'm not giving this away to you just retroactively four years later.
[00:18:45] Myriam: Like this should have been discussed. Otherwise I wouldn't have said no. And the person was like, well, everyone signs it. But if, if it's how you feel, then we're just not going to use your courses for this. And I'm like, Perfect. You do you? Perfect. So, is there something in the way it's written where you understand the pressure and the social like, I need you to do this, and I will be using authority, and I will be like making it seem normal, and I will, I will, I will, until you do what I want you to do?
[00:19:18] Myriam: Yes, this happens in business all the time. I guess you could call it diplomacy, I don't, I don't particularly like when people do this, I like. Transparent, like let's communicate, let's keep it easy, but there's two types of scenarios when you should say no, for me. So it's a subtree of yours. When people are displaying red flags all over, so being aggressive, that energy that you can't quite see.
[00:19:46] Myriam: pinpoint it. There's a reason why you can't pinpoint it. There's a reason why you are left wondering, am I being aggressive out of nowhere? Am I being defensive out of nowhere? It's on purpose. It's to destabilize you. Okay. And that's fine that you know how to face this, but then there's the other portion, the gray area.
[00:20:09] Myriam: Don't worry about it. We'll figure it out. No, no, don't worry. I got you covered. So whenever you try to ask questions and people are like doing that or going but I thought we already settled this and you're like No, we have not. You should also feel comfortable saying no, because it's going to work out.
[00:20:32] Myriam: The project is going to at least go well. It could also go badly, but it's going to go well for the project. It's going to go well, maybe for your client. It's not going to go well for you. So you have to keep in mind that all of those gray areas are going to be outsourced onto you. That cost onto you. So tell me, are there more branches in the decision tree?
[00:20:54] Olga: I am like quite a straightforward person. So I would say just those. Yes, yes, but no, period.
[00:21:03] Myriam: I think we've covered it all. Like, um, the one bonus I would say is if you feel that people are treating you like an employee and you're not, or vice versa, always make sure in writing to document that you are not and act like you're not.
[00:21:18] Myriam: Let me explain. If you're a freelancer, you could be accused of hidden employment. And that comes with extra taxes in some countries. So this is when your main client is basically for all intents and purposes, treating you like an employee without the benefits. Okay. So what does this look like? If your client is asking you to white label for them, it's not a red flag.
[00:21:41] Myriam: It's not a green flag. You just have to look into it. If your system is, I work with proton mail or Gmail, and they're like, you cannot forward. You must go into our Outlook inbox every day, even though we hire you once a month. Um, no, you have your own processes, and if they cannot adjust because, and I quote, everyone in the company does this, that's fine.
[00:22:03] Myriam: Um, what workaround will they find for you? Because you're not doing that. And if they're already buckling there, They're either treating you like an employee but a cheaper one or they are going to be causing you issues for deliverables as well and expect you to pull all nighters because that's what their employees do.
[00:22:22] Myriam: So that's a little bonus I would add.
[00:22:24] Olga: Yeah, like it kind of reminded me of the situation I was in a few years ago when I was hired as an independent contractor. This was like, I would say this was a job, but the agreement says that independent contractor, there were obviously no employee benefits. But I was treated like an employee from start to finish, that's why I kind of, it didn't last for, for a very long time.
[00:22:56] Olga: And it kind of rings very true now as you're saying this, because I didn't really kind of connect the dots back then. All I knew is that it doesn't feel right, because I, I, I don't want to be an employee and I don't want to feel like one. But now when you said it, it kind of dawned upon me that this was the kind of misaligned situation I was in for some time.
[00:23:24] Myriam: And ultimately, I think this is what SEO cash flow is all about. Like us sharing all the times that we knew it wasn't right, but couldn't express it. And it Like giving equipment to other people on how to handle those murky murky waters. So Yeah, it's just thinking back. I think we have way more examples that we could share just for this one episode I hope that we were useful and All got any parting words
[00:23:52] Olga: Yeah, I think, like, know your worth and set your boundaries and don't be desperate.
[00:23:59] Olga: That would be my final word.
[00:24:03] Myriam: But, but, but, but, but, but when you say that, now I have to give a final, final word because while I agree, this economy is also rough, so you have to be very careful and you have to ask yourself, okay. Is me saying yes to this despite being uncomfortable means me saying no to other potential cool stuff?
[00:24:22] Myriam: Ask yourself that instead of being desperate. And if me saying yes, will this, will I do it once? And then I'm in the cycle and this client is going to stay with me for years, for example. Then that could work because I have some friends that are basically, um, used to be in an industry now that is being taken over by AI and they are still operating under the assumptions that their competition is some dude on Fiverr and it's maybe some dude on Fiverr with AI.
[00:24:56] Myriam: And so they're like, Oh, business is bad. And it's like, at some point either. Say yes, go out of your comfort zone, try to figure out what the lay of the land is and recalibrate or investigate your worth another way, but know your worth for real. Don't have a hypothetical worth. Always be aware of the market as well.
[00:25:19] Myriam: And uh, yeah, I think that caps it.
[00:25:22] Olga: Yeah, I think so. So thanks Miriam a lot and I will see you in the next episode. Bye bye.
[00:25:29] Myriam: See you soon.
