Olga-Martina - Made with Clipchamp
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[00:00:00] Olga: Hi everyone, it's Olga Zarr from SEOSLY. This is SEO podcast by SEO Sly. Today, I have a special guest. This is Martina. How should I pronounce your surname? I don't want to try and fail. Oh, well,
[00:00:16] Martina: Martina ZrzavĆ” LibÅickĆ”, but it's not probably important. Like
[00:00:20] Olga: a little bit similar to mine. Yeah. I am Zarr.
[00:00:23] Olga: Similar. Okay, Martina, so how are you doing today? SEO sly, SEO done right. I'm Olga Zarr, an SEO consultant in SEO since 2012. Don't forget to subscribe to learn SEO for free with me. Now let's get into the show. Well busy. Busy. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know the pain. Yeah. I know the feeling. Okay, Martina. I know something about you.
[00:00:52] Olga: I've been following you for some time. So you are I would say quite a name in SEO and in , women part of SEO. So, for people who don't know you, can you like briefly introduce yourself in a couple of sentences in case someone doesn't know you yet. So I'm
[00:01:10] Martina: Martina, uh, I'm from a Czech Republic and neighbor.
[00:01:14] Martina: Yeah, exactly. And I would say that most of my career, I was always working from the Czech Republic, but usually for international companies. And, um, two years ago, or, well, probably not even that long. I started doing a CEO, uh, in my own market, I started freelancing. Oh, I soon realized that things are not the way I was used to in SEO industry in my country and in Czech and Slovak republics.
[00:01:47] Martina: But the good thing is that I have experience from international SEO. I have a good experience with cooperating cross teams, you know, et cetera. And this is something that I'm trying to, um, help my clients with. And I am also trying to mentor CEOs, uh, in, in my country. That they can do the same. But, let's say, uh, there are hurdles.
[00:02:12] Martina: And a lot of obstacles. I
[00:02:14] Olga: would say
[00:02:15] Martina: that the industry in the Czech Republic, and if some Czech SEALs will see this, they are going to hate me for it. And I'm pretty sure that they will call me on social media. But there's a lot of things that we need to improve in that industry. I see all the time these advices, et cetera.
[00:02:31] Martina: It's just something that abroad was maybe working like 10 years ago, and it doesn't work even in the Czech Republic. It's just that if people are selling their services in a way that I think should just be forbidden.
[00:02:43] Olga: Yeah, this is, this is super interesting because I can totally relate to that because definitely SEO in Poland is way different.
[00:02:50] Olga: from SEO for the US or for the UK. So this is something I hope we'll talk in just a second. I've just noted that down because yeah, this is, this is going to be very, very interesting as well. Uh, so when did you start your SEO journey? Uh, 2011. 2011. Okay. Okay. So you are like a big fish, I would say, with a lot of experience.
[00:03:18] Martina: I would say
[00:03:19] Olga: the
[00:03:19] Martina: longer
[00:03:20] Olga: I'm
[00:03:20] Martina: in
[00:03:20] Olga: SEO,
[00:03:21] Martina: the more I'm aware of. How many things I just don't know, and I will probably never know.
[00:03:27] Olga: Yeah, I, I have the exact same, feelings. I also started around that time, and I remember I took a course, it was, I'm not sure if you're familiar, SiteBuildit. There was this kind of platform you could build a site.
[00:03:41] Olga: They taught you SEO, keyword research. And I took this course, I built a bunch of websites, they started to rank, and I was sure then, after maybe a year, that I know everything. I don't need to know anything else, I know everything. And now, 10 years plus, I, I feel that I have never known anything.
[00:04:03] Martina: But you know, the truth is that, um, back in, uh, 2011, 2012, it was completely different. Yeah. I mean, they're still the same. Like we still build SEO on the same basics, but it's so, uh, it's so complex now. It's so different.
[00:04:22] Olga: Yeah, yeah. There are so moving, so many moving parts, other factors, like, like back then you followed the recipe and it would work now it will or it won't.
[00:04:35] Olga: Okay. So, uh, we have a bunch of like topics to discuss, but, can you tell me more about your freelancing, like, like what types of clients do you work with? , are you like solo or do you have a team?
[00:04:50] Martina: Yeah, no, I'm solo. Well, I have my virtual assistant, but that's more for like administrative work because she can help me with SEO related tasks.
[00:05:01] Martina: So it's just me. I started freelancing, uh, let's say by an accident because, um, so I had a baby in 2021 and I was home for about 18 months. I started working already. I started to do a bit of freelancing after like 10 months after she was born. And I didn't want to get back to my old job and luckily my position became redundant, which was great.
[00:05:29] Martina: Uh huh. Well, a lot of people might be sorry for me. Don't be. First, I wanted that. And second, in Europe, if your position is being redundant, you usually get a goodbye package because you have to. Oh, I received that goodbye package, so it was good, but all of a sudden, you know, I became the only bread giver because my husband was replacing me on the parental leave.
[00:05:54] Olga: And I didn't
[00:05:55] Martina: have a stable job and, you know, freelancing like 100 percent that, that means it's, it's very different from being employed, right?
[00:06:02] Olga: Yeah, totally, totally. Especially at the
[00:06:05] Martina: start. Yeah. So this is how I started. And I think I had to make the decision on my own. I probably wouldn't do it that fast.
[00:06:14] Martina: So I'm just happy things turned out this way. Of course the big things were a little bit difficult because when I started, I had like one client,
[00:06:23] Olga: but
[00:06:26] Martina: I was invoicing a lot right from the start. I was invoicing enough, what I had to invoice. And it was just, you know, getting up. So,
[00:06:36] Olga: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like having one client for starters.
[00:06:39] Olga: This is, this is actually great. A lot of people start with no clients. They have to like work kind of for free for many, for many months before they, they can get a client. For me, I was like doing it, in parallel. I had a job and then I was building a client base before I made the final. So the final jump, yeah, I was, I have, I have never been so exhausted in my, in my whole life than back then when I, when I was having basically two jobs and clients, but, but I also like put an end to that and.
[00:07:16] Olga: I think this was the best decision. And, can you tell me like, what types of clients do you work with? You mentioned at the start that at first you were doing international SEO in your previous SEO jobs, right? And now you mostly do a local or is it like a mix?
[00:07:34] Martina: Well, it's, it's like a mix. Uh, so I, I, when, when I started freelancing, I had a very large e commerce project that was just Czech and Slovak, but eventually, uh, I acquired different clients.
[00:07:50] Martina: I also acquired B2B clients, um, working in industry, which is, um, I would say it's a lot of work, but I really like it because it's different from, uh, selling, uh, but cheese and shampoos, et cetera. Uh huh. Yeah, definitely. Nothing against e commerce, but I think there's been too
[00:08:10] Olga: much e commerce in my life.
[00:08:11] Olga: Okay. Okay. So I understand you have a lot of e commerce. So now
[00:08:16] Martina: I prefer like a little different clients. Um, I also sometimes serve very small clients. I know that from a cashflow perspective, it's probably not the best step. But on the other hand, they also need help with SEO. Yeah, exactly. I do not find clients actively.
[00:08:38] Martina: So they usually reach out to me on LinkedIn or based on recommendation from someone else. So if it's them who feel like we need SEO and they clarify why and I see like it has a potential like it's meaningful for them to invest into SEO, I, I usually cooperate with them because these are very interesting projects.
[00:08:58] Martina: Just so much different from anything else.
[00:09:01] Olga: Yeah. Yeah. I have, I have the same experiences here and a big, I would say advantage of having a small client, especially the one who reaches to you and knows the need for SEO is that you are usually free to do anything you want with the site. Very often you are given access and you can just do all the magic.
[00:09:20] Olga: And it was bigger ones. It may take years before they update the title tag or or something like that. It's um, it depends It depends. Yeah, I mean it
[00:09:31] Martina: depends whether they have internal or external dev team and you know Whether they're willing to cooperate and they have contracts that force them to cope
[00:09:40] Olga: that's true. I have a lot of experience working for e commerce I worked for proctor and gamble for many years and I remember that You Very often I created tons of audits, recommendations, I don't know how many percent, small percent of that actually got implemented, but that's, that's how it, how it is, the realities of big e commerce websites.
[00:10:04] Martina: Oh,
[00:10:08] Olga: I also, I also had one project that as well. . Nice. Um, so let's talk now. Um, I think we have two emerging topics for now. , let's talk about the differences between SEO, the state of Google, , in Czech, , versus English US, like what differences, what challenges. Do you see like, and you said that people will not agree with what you're going to say.
[00:10:37] Olga: Can you tell, can you now tell us more about that, those thoughts you have?
[00:10:42] Martina: So just to give a context, so we have two search engines in the Czech Republic. Or basically we have more, but we have also our own search engine, which is called Cessnum. And people are now searching on Google. Some people are using AI, that Bing implemented into their search, but still there are, there's a certain group of people, let's say, who are using Cessnum.
[00:11:07] Martina: So in some industries and issues, uh, we have to track like all these search engines.
[00:11:14] Olga: Uh huh.
[00:11:17] Martina: Well, I don't have clients for whom the search engines would be Important but there are still issues where it is. It's just the missions that I don't work for. Um, Because I don't do like, uh non banking stuff,
[00:11:32] Olga: etc And the percentage of google versus this other search engine like How many do you know?
[00:11:41] Olga: I think well, we don't
[00:11:43] Martina: have the current data, but like two years ago It was google was nearly 80 percent You
[00:11:48] Olga: Oh, so
[00:11:49] Martina: that's not
[00:11:50] Olga: a lot. In Poland, I think it's 98 or something like that. So yeah, so it isn't like that, uh, that far. And, uh, like the differences in SEO, like, tell me more about that. Yeah, I'll tell you more
[00:12:07] Martina: about that.
[00:12:07] Martina: Uh, so online catalogs are still a thing here. Uh huh.
[00:12:17] Martina: It's a little bit against the spam policies, right?
[00:12:19] Olga: Uh huh. Uh huh. Yeah, I guess.
[00:12:22] Martina: And, um, what I noticed recently, because I didn't believe it, but a friend of mine who's also an SEO in the Czech Republic, he told me that there are companies specializing in sending invoices to people who never paid for the service just to be in the catalog.
[00:12:40] Martina: And there's a small like clause saying that if you pay it, you're signing a contract and you're agreeing, it's difficult to cancel it. And people, they usually pay it. They don't know they don't have to pay for it. And this is how these companies are actually making money here. And I'm sure that those things are still happening, but that's not everything.
[00:13:03] Martina: What I've noticed is that also some Czech link builders are also putting links to these catalogs and companies pay a lot of money for that, but it's just shit and Google knows it. So, it doesn't even give it relevance. So, I'm always very unhappy seeing like how things work here in the industry because I see clients like paying for a lot of stuff.
[00:13:25] Martina: Stuff that is just not okay. I see a lot of seals providing, um, you would, uh, research for the clients. And that's just an Excel. Usually it's not even cleaned. It's full of words that should not be there because it's not relevant to their industry or their business, et cetera. And sometimes it can have like several, several thousands, you know, lines.
[00:13:55] Olga: Oh.
[00:13:55] Martina: There's no context. Yeah. And then you ask the client how much they paid and it cost them really a lot of money. And they ask you like, what are we supposed to do with it? I'm like, I don't know. I didn't provide it. I personally don't know what I would do with it.
[00:14:12] Olga: Yeah, a lot of scammers. Yeah. I'm not sure about that.
[00:14:15] Olga: Yeah. I'm not sure about the state of like directory listings, those types of things in Poland. Because to be honest, I don't do Polish SEO. I did for some time when I was still at the agency, agency side a little bit. But I know that in Poland, but I'm not sure if it is only in Poland. There are a lot of people who will do something bad to your Google business profile, get you banned, and then they would call you and offer services.
[00:14:47] Olga: they will offer you to kind of restore your Google business profile, even though they were the ones who made you I got you out of there. So I know that's
[00:14:59] Martina: also happening here. I just, I just never heard of. Yeah.
[00:15:03] Olga: Yeah. I know this, this, this is for sure happening and a lot of other similar things, but this one for sure.
[00:15:10] Olga: And even recently I received, but this is like to my email, which is like for, for the U S. I received a like final notification from a non existent lawyer saying that I am infringing some images on some website I have to pay. But the fact is that on my website, I only have my own screenshots. So it is like Hardly possible for me to even if I wanted.
[00:15:39] Olga: Anyway, funny story and regarding the how easy or how, how difficult it is to rank in Czech, uh, Czech Republic versus in the U. S. Like, do you, do you see the differences? It depends. Aha.
[00:15:58] Martina: No, well, it really depends on the industry and. the competitiveness of the niche. But, um, I would say in the U. S. is harder because they're still like when it comes to competition, there's way more companies you need to outbid.
[00:16:14] Martina: Uh, yeah, yeah,
[00:16:15] Olga: Definitely. Like same here in Poland, I would say even like domain ratings, whether we believe in that or we don't like the The domain ratings of websites that rank for even very competitive Polish keywords usually are in thirties or something. So,
[00:16:34] Martina: yeah,
[00:16:36] Olga: yeah. So it is, uh, I, I would say five, 10 times easier to rank a page in Poland, in Poland.
[00:16:43] Olga: And the, and they say, I'm not sure if that's true. that the algorithm is the most advanced for English queries and it is not necessarily that advanced for other languages. I haven't verified that, but it seems it kind of makes sense.
[00:17:02] Martina: It kind of makes sense, but I think that this is something that's now better.
[00:17:06] Martina: I remember because Polish and Czech are, they're different languages, but still they're from the same language group. And, uh, well, I remember in the past. Uh, Google was actually struggling with this, what's that called, conjugation, I think, you know, how the words are changing according to the meaning at the end.
[00:17:27] Martina: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And also the verbs are changing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Depending on what you talk about. So I remember like a long time ago when I, when I started my career, I think Google was struggling really to get the context. But, um,
[00:17:44] Olga: Yeah. Then there was this update hummingbird. I'm not sure. Yeah.
[00:17:50] Martina: So now I see like, it doesn't matter, but this is the problem.
[00:17:55] Martina: Cause this is the common myth in the Czech Republic. It actually needs to be written in a certain way, otherwise Google won't understand. And some people still do that. And I still see these recommendations or I hear it from the clients. It's like, so who told you that? And they're like, Oh, yeah. Well, some feel before you told us that this is how we need to do it, you know, back in, I don't know, 2011, 2012, but not now.
[00:18:23] Martina: So I get a lot of clicks and they sound really, um, so unnatural. And then these people are like, Oh, we're dropping positions. Do you have any idea why? Have you read your texts, baby?
[00:18:38] Olga: Yeah, yeah, even, like, if I'm reading something in Polish, like, even, like, medical stuff, it is usually so easy to, to, to tell that there was, there is a lot of keyword stuffing happening, like.
[00:18:52] Olga: I don't like the quality of most Polish results, like
[00:18:56] Martina: Currently written for SEO Yeah,
[00:18:58] Olga: yeah, yeah, or are totally out of like, totally unoptimized and what's your favorite part of SEO? Like, is it like, I don't know, technical SEO, local SEO? Like, what would you say is your specialty?
[00:19:16] Martina: I like tech SEO. Oh, why?
[00:19:19] Martina: Because I love, I love cooperating with the developers. Oh, that's rare. That's weird. No,
[00:19:28] Olga: no, I, I, yeah, please tell, tell me more about this.
[00:19:33] Martina: Well, so I really think that when it comes to SEO, SEO and developers, that can be a huge love and affection. It just often doesn't happen because we don't know how to talk with these people.
[00:19:48] Martina: I was also the one who was just, you know, putting user stories into backlog and nobody was just persisting them. But eventually I managed to find a way how to help developers with my user stories in a way that they would just, you know, put it into in progress, but it took a lot of effort because I had to basically Manage to understand how they're working.
[00:20:19] Martina: And I think I really fully began to understand it because my husband's a project manager and he's been a scrum master for several years. And I remember when he was preparing for his, uh, scrum certification. He was reading a lot of stuff out loud, and I usually hate it, but this was just so interesting, and I was like, so this is how these things are working, because previously nobody told me that.
[00:20:49] Martina: And I started having a discussion with him about it, because I was just curious. Because I was like, it's like, why do you want to know? I said, I really think this could help me in my job. And how? Because you're not a developer. No, but you know, I send a lot of stuff. I need them to process. And they just don't, you know, cooperate.
[00:21:06] Martina: And maybe this is the way how they could cooperate. So he basically explained me, uh, the whole thing, how it works. And the most typical framework they work at is Scrum framework. And I started understanding like what needs to be a part of this ticket, this user story. Can you, can
[00:21:23] Olga: you tell me like in a more, in a like nutshell, like what, what this framework framework framework looks like?
[00:21:31] Martina: Oh, so this framework is basically a framework where you have a product owner. And the product owner, uh, owns the product. He's the one who's delivering either to the customer or the stakeholder. Then you have a scrum master and the scrum master's role is, uh, basically, um, helping the scrum team, which consists of field.
[00:21:55] Martina: the dev team and scrum master to be as efficient as possible and remove all impediments or helping them remove impediments and then there's dev team and the dev team delivers, um, product to the client and also delivers, uh, Uh, the, the increment to the product owner.
[00:22:18] Olga: Uh huh.
[00:22:19] Martina: And when I began to understand how they cooperating, because, you know, people usually want to speak with them.
[00:22:25] Martina: It's possible, but there are certain meetings where you can do it. It's not like you just write to the developers and you expect them, you know, to speak with you on a chat. Okay. Sometimes these things can happen. Of course, it just depends how the teams agree on it. But I remember these frustrations, like.
[00:22:43] Martina: We're sending them emails and they do not react. Yeah, because there's a ticketing system No one's going to talk to you unless you know What everything you have a ticketing system and also when it comes to user stories, uh, it just needs to be named properly Uh, it needs to have a definition of done. It needs to have a proper description Uh, there needs to be very proper and thorough guidelines about why we do it What we do,
[00:23:13] Olga: what's
[00:23:14] Martina: expected and how it's relevant or what impact it has on business.
[00:23:21] Martina: Because this is something that they usually like if they don't know what impact it has for the business. And the product owner, when the product owner doesn't see that there's enough increment, it will just put the user story down to the backlog because there will always be something with higher priority.
[00:23:40] Martina: That's very much in a nutshell. It's a little bit more complex. But
[00:23:43] Olga: yeah, yeah, yeah. I can imagine. I know little about it, but yeah. Yeah. And what about, because the biggest challenges I have had with developers so far is that they often don't know, don't know anything about SEO. So very often in many cases, my role, especially at the agency side was to educate the developers about SEO.
[00:24:09] Olga: I even used to do some trainings at the agency for just for developers, teaching them about headings, like all those things. And once they actually like learned those things, The, the cooperation actually, became, I would say way better, smoother and ticketing system. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. They, they need to, they, most of them, it is hard to, with most of them, it is hard to communicate via email, I would say, but of course there are exceptions for, for sure.
[00:24:44] Olga: And, um, talking about, technical SEO and Kind of how things are changing, how fast they are changing, like, I, I, I went for vacation back in January for two weeks, I got back and so much, so many things were happening in just two weeks. How do you keep up? How do we keep up? Like what is your, your story, what's your recipe for that?
[00:25:14] Olga: I think I don't,
[00:25:16] Martina: no. You know, seriously, I feel like this person, you know, chasing chin kazen by running
[00:25:26] Martina: or I feel like this hamster in that. Why that in
[00:25:29] Olga: the
[00:25:29] Martina: wheel?
[00:25:29] Olga: The
[00:25:30] Martina: wheel, wheel wheel. Yeah. This, this is how I feel usually like, because it, it feels like. Um, so I, I received quite a lot of newsletters, you know, but still like every every is unique, delivering some unique information. And then I read it, but it's like you read something, then you start thinking about something else.
[00:25:53] Martina: Then you want to discover it, and then you realize, oh boy, I also have to make a living. You know, I just can't keep educating myself all the time. So this is really difficult for me.
[00:26:06] Olga: Yeah, yeah, I have the same issue. I wish I could spend, I don't know, at least half of my time learning and reading. That would be so awesome.
[00:26:15] Olga: Very, I, I had this kind of, um, I promised myself to learn SEO for an hour every day before I start, start work. But by, but very often I just open the computer, log in, I jump into one client and the entire day goes by. And, uh, I don't have kids, so. I have, I would say, more flexibility.
[00:26:43] Olga: You, you, you mentioned you, you have a baby, so how, and I guess most people do. So how do you, how do you manage, uh, to, to, So still, because you are up to date, you are successful. So you're, even though, even if you feel like a hamster in the wheel, you are successful. So how do you do that?
[00:27:02] Olga: How do you marry the, those? So now,
[00:27:05] Martina: now it's easier because my, my husband's on par to leave and I am the only bread giver. But I remember the time when I was. That's dad, her mom,
[00:27:17] Olga: and
[00:27:19] Martina: I always planned my day, you know, I always thought she would take a nap and I just could, you know, go through something, et cetera.
[00:27:27] Martina: But then she wasn't sleeping. Or she took a nap and I had to, you know, do the laundry and I just couldn't educate myself. And that was just difficult, uh, because I sometimes just went blinking and I saw another algorithm update, another news, you know, another, another feature insert was like, oh boy, like, Will I still be able to, you know, start working again and like delivering?
[00:27:56] Olga: Uh huh.
[00:27:57] Martina: And that was like a fear. I think a lot of people have this experience too.
[00:28:04] Olga: Yeah, definitely, definitely.
[00:28:05] Martina: It's just difficult because basically when you're a stay at home parent, you're usually cut off completely, uh, from work, from everything. Um, all you do is you're taking care of a child. Okay, sometimes you have a nanny or sometimes someone offers you to take care of the kids for a while.
[00:28:27] Martina: But that's usually the time you need to do something for yourself so you don't get nuts. And you don't have, or I don't have a capacity to go through SEO news. And when I had, I always just felt so desperate.
[00:28:43] Olga: Uh huh.
[00:28:44] Martina: Because I had a feeling like, oh boy, everything's changing. And what am I going to do?
[00:28:48] Martina: Because I just couldn't keep up.
[00:28:51] Olga: Yeah.
[00:28:52] Martina: Now it's a little bit better, but still it's, You work and this is what you this is what you mentioned. I also had this ambition, you know Having these blockers in my calendar for personal development, but um, they always ended up. Um, They always ended up they always ended up just differently.
[00:29:14] Olga: Yeah, like it rarely goes exactly, uh according to the plan For sure. yeah, one thing that helped me is helping me is listening to SEO podcasts, because usually you can do that while doing something else, right? Why I often listen to SEO podcasts while, while I'm running. So it is kind of, you can just kill two birds with one stone as they say in this way, but still going even, even going through, because I was reading, I was sending my newsletter today.
[00:29:47] Olga: So I needed, I don't know, four hours or more to go through all the news and choose the best ones. And, and I, and I cannot say I have read everything from start to finish that, that, that, that is simply not possible. Unfortunately. I listen to
[00:30:04] Martina: podcasts sometimes when I go to clients, cause I work from home.
[00:30:08] Martina: So when I go, when I go to clients, I usually travel by train. So I listen to podcasts. I was actually trying to listen to podcasts, uh, in the car with my daughter. Uh, she wasn't so enthusiastic about it, I was like, Mom, I want baby shark.
[00:30:28] Olga: Yes, so maybe she's going to be an SEO. No, I don't think so. She didn't
[00:30:32] Martina: like it.
[00:30:32] Martina: She just wanted baby shark.
[00:30:34] Olga: Oh, so she
[00:30:34] Martina: didn't.
[00:30:36] Olga: Okay, yeah, maybe she will. In some time if you, if she listens enough to that, honestly.
[00:30:43] Martina: Okay. I think that when we, uh, when my daughter is adult, I don't think we will be doing a seal. Yeah. Probably this will be very different.
[00:30:51] Olga: Something something else. Yeah. ai, OIO.
[00:30:57] Olga: Yeah. Yeah. Or some or something like that. And, um, so you are an. You're an independent SEO consultant and your start was, wasn't that smooth and easy. Can you talk about like the mistakes you made, in your journey, um, while being an SEO consultant, something you can, you can, other people can avoid doing?
[00:31:22] Martina: You mean the freelance one? Yeah, so yeah, so, um, I had a contract right from the start and that was the best invested money. I think I always work, um, with clients that only signed a contract and NDAs with me, but I see a lot of people around me who don't do it and eventually they're very unhappy. Uh huh.
[00:31:52] Martina: Because clients just pay, pay, pay, and then all of a sudden they, for example, stop paying. And it's difficult, you know, getting money from the clients without pay contracts. What I remember I was doing wrong, uh, from the beginning. I, when it came to pricing,
[00:32:10] Olga: Uh huh. I often
[00:32:11] Martina: didn't realize that projects are just so different.
[00:32:15] Martina: And that sometimes it took me, you know, A lot more time to do the same thing on project B than on project A. Even though the project B looks smaller, it was just more time consuming.
[00:32:30] Olga: Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:31] Martina: Something that I am working with and what really helped me was tracking time on everything. Just to really see like how much time I'm spending on certain things.
[00:32:44] Olga: Yeah, I also do that. How do you track your time in
[00:32:47] Martina: Togo?
[00:32:48] Olga: In what
[00:32:50] Martina: in Togo?
[00:32:50] Olga: Oh, I don't I don't know. Yeah.
[00:32:54] Martina: Yeah. There's a lot of time trackers and I'm writing down even when I'm preparing for example, because I also do trainings and workshops. So even when I'm preparing for these trainings and workshops, I just track it down.
[00:33:08] Martina: Because next time, you know, a client asks for a training or a workshop. I can imagine briefly, like, how
[00:33:15] Olga: long it will,
[00:33:17] Martina: I will need to allocate my resources on preparation.
[00:33:21] Olga: So do you, do you usually charge per project or per hour?
[00:33:27] Martina: I charge per hour, but, and this is also something that I need to reconsider.
[00:33:33] Martina: I'm thinking of starting, uh, charging also some packages are more likely that people would have like prepaid hours or prepaid services. Okay. on monthly basis, but they would have to sign up for, let's say, you know, 12 months or something. And if they wouldn't use it, they, they just would have to still pay, but wouldn't use it because, you know, working on our basis.
[00:33:59] Martina: So, okay. I have some long term clients and there's a lot of work on them. So let's say. I always know that I will manage to, uh, invoice and earn the money that I need. But on the other hand, if some of these clients leave and they wouldn't leave from month to month because we have contracts and there's like some living period for both of us, it means I would need to acquire another client.
[00:34:30] Martina: And it depends whether that's just going to be like one time job, because in the Czech Republic, not all the clients understand. Why continuous SEO is important and they're also not willing to pay for it. It's not like abroad, because abroad it's a common practice that when you acquire a client, you are with that client for quite a long time.
[00:34:54] Martina: But in the Czech Republic, I also have a lot of clients where it's just like a one time job that takes like one, two, maybe three months and then it's over. They are not willing to invest more, they don't have budgets for a CEO to do it continuously. And they understand why it should be done continuously, but let's say that their management doesn't give them
[00:35:18] Olga: more
[00:35:21] Martina: money for a CEO.
[00:35:22] Martina: So there's nothing you can do about this. So I'm still thinking of how to, um, how to improve that
[00:35:33] Olga: for
[00:35:33] Martina: myself because I do
[00:35:35] Olga: it just for myself, right? Yeah, sure. Sure. And about, about contracts. So in most cases, I have contracts as well and it is usually the client who wants to sign the contract. And I also thought at first that would protect me from like the client abandoning me out of the blue.
[00:35:58] Olga: But I had a case where I had a three month notice period and the client, something changed with them. And they said, We need to stop right now at this moment. We will come back when we can. And I could say, wait, wait, wait, we have 90 days, but I just thought, okay, they need to, okay, I'm okay, I don't care about the contract at this moment, I, I will wait, because if, because if I said that to them, probably that would ruin our relationship, and I'm not sure if they would be willing to come back after those three months.
[00:36:37] Olga: So. Yes, , yes, after six months, I think I don't remember exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I also had a case where the client stopped. And it is like stopped. Um, up until now, so they do come back, they don't, but, but like, but from a practical , standpoint, probably it is, it is wiser to, to kind of respect this notice period for everyone, right?
[00:37:08] Olga: I
[00:37:09] Martina: also require advance payment.
[00:37:12] Olga: Yeah, me too. Me too. I used
[00:37:14] Martina: to require 50%, but now I require 100. And if they pay three invoices like consecutively on time, then I don't require that. Oh, okay. It's not 100 percent but it's less.
[00:37:30] Olga: Uh huh.
[00:37:30] Martina: But let's say they need to, they need to deserve that.
[00:37:34] Olga: They need to earn, yeah, that privilege.
[00:37:36] Olga: Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:39] Martina: Also, like, so I have like, an hourly rate. And when it comes to contract and when it comes to, uh, ordering the services, what I do, I do for a price. We either, um, agree on or, or I have an hourly estimation, how long it's going to take. And then I track it and invoice what, what I actually spent on that job.
[00:38:07] Martina: But if they asked me to do something extra that we didn't agree on and they didn't order. I charge them a lot more than is my hourly rate.
[00:38:17] Olga: Uh huh.
[00:38:18] Martina: And now I am also thinking to, uh, to incorporate into my pricing. I don't know what they call it in English, but let's say that you allocate your time and you book your calendar and then client all of a sudden last minute decides that it can be done.
[00:38:40] Martina: So I want to charge them 50 percent of this. Anyway, especially if it's like last last minute call. Uh huh Last minute. I always don't manage, you know to do something else for Other clients because for example, they know that they have time to give me Uh, give me what I need from them, you know So i'm thinking of doing this Because it sometimes happens with certain clients and it doesn't mean I would charge 50 person But then they would still have to pay the full price because they yeah
[00:39:18] Olga: Yeah, totally, totally.
[00:39:20] Olga: I have a question. If you can talk more about how are you managing those projects which were underpriced? Because I had, I had this situation many times. But recently I had a very like serious situation. So I had a client, the client was supposed to get money from the government. We agreed on a sum. This was the sum they were supposed to get.
[00:39:44] Olga: It was supposed to be for a year. Then, , we, I think we signed the contract. And then it turned out that the amount they would get is 30 percent of that. And the client wouldn't be, didn't want to like add from their own money. So we were left with this. 30 percent of the budget for three websites. And it is like almost impossible for me to do anything.
[00:40:08] Olga: The client has, the contract has been signed. A few months have passed and the client, and there are a lot of things to do. And I am saying the client, we need to do this, this, that, but I have to charge you extra for that because it isn't even included in the contract. And the client is getting angry so how do you manage such situations?
[00:40:32] Martina: Well, so
[00:40:33] Olga: it
[00:40:33] Martina: could be the client where I would be explaining why they need to pay more and they wouldn't be willing to pay more, but they would still expect me to deliver the same, like was agreed in the contract.
[00:40:49] Martina: I think sometimes, you know, wasting energy where it just doesn't make sense. It's not useful.
[00:40:56] Olga: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:57] Martina: So if, if, if you see that there's no mutual agreement or if you see that there are no synergies and they just expect you to do it free of charge, just, just sleep and just, you know, use this energy on some other client.
[00:41:09] Olga: Yeah. Yeah. But it has been paid, for this entire period in advance. So in advance, 30
[00:41:15] Martina: percent no.
[00:41:17] Olga: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:18] Martina: Yeah. So you did 30 percent of your work and you're done. You don't want to pay more. No. Yeah, you're right. What I usually ask clients when they, uh, cause I had some clients when I gave them the price and they were like, if it could be cheaper, I was like, so does it mean you want me to do the job?
[00:41:36] Martina: Just 30 Oh, no, no. I'm like, yeah, but this is how it works. If you want to pay less, this is how it works.
[00:41:46] Olga: Yeah,
[00:41:47] Martina: totally. And that's when they realize that they don't, you know, they don't want you to provide just part, part of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But sometimes they never realize it, so then it doesn't make sense to stay with them, I would say.
[00:42:00] Olga: Yeah, totally, totally. Like it inspired me to record a video about what is an ideal SEO client and not an ideal SEO client. It just, just popped into my head. Okay. So, a few final things like, what are the tips you would give, someone who, who is just starting out? , Things about being a freelancer consultant in the future?
[00:42:24] Olga: What would be your number one tips for for such a person?
[00:42:32] Martina: Definitely believe in yourself. If you think you're good, don't sell your job cheap, because I was doing from the beginning.
[00:42:46] Olga: Yeah, me too.
[00:42:47] Martina: Everyone. And then I and then I skyrocketed my hourly rate and everybody thought I was expensive. That's also not good for your current clients because they, they won't like it.
[00:42:59] Martina: If you make your services way more expensive in, in a couple of months time, they will probably be very unhappy about it. But they accepted eventually, but it was, uh, we had a lot of discussions about it and I didn't like it.
[00:43:14] Olga: Uh huh.
[00:43:15] Martina: So know your price. It's better to start with higher price. And if you, if you feel like you're not acquiring enough clients, you can always, always, you know, go down, but it's worth going from very cheap to more expensive.
[00:43:28] Martina: Yeah,
[00:43:29] Olga: definitely, definitely. So this is what
[00:43:31] Martina: I would probably do differently now, having these friends with it. Uh, make sure to have a good, good bond and proof of contact. Take it as an investment.
[00:43:42] Olga: Uh,
[00:43:46] Martina: and yeah, when it comes to pricing projects. Think of buffers on every single thing you do and, uh, Maybe you will be better at it than I am, but 20 percent buffer is like, is the least minimum I would say.
[00:44:04] Olga: Totally. There are a few projects in my entire career which I overestimated instead of underestimated, really. Maybe I'm just Bad at this. Uh huh. Okay. And, uh, what's the best place to follow you, find you, your website, anything you have?
[00:44:27] Olga: So you can follow me on LinkedIn.
[00:44:30] Martina: You can find me on my network. I'll add the link. Yeah. And the website, so it's still in construction. Margin is so busy, you know, so
[00:44:40] Olga: that's, yeah,
[00:44:41] Martina: that's a
[00:44:42] Olga: good
[00:44:42] Martina: sign. Yeah. I started my freelancing career out of nowhere basically. And ever since I've always wanted to build a website, but then, you know, I am busy.
[00:44:54] Martina: I have life. So that's never enough time for my own personal, you know, branding. But I'm working on it. I would say that's a good problem to have. Oh, well, well, I was actually worried because I was always thinking like, yeah, so I'm selling a seal services and I don't have a proper website and my clients are not going to like that.
[00:45:18] Martina: No one ever asked me about it. Yeah. That's just, which is just so strange, you know? Yeah. But you know, my problem is I could just, you know, do it. On WordPress and have it tomorrow, but I have like, I exactly know how I want things to be. Yeah, yeah, it has to be perfect. It makes it so complicated, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:45:38] Olga: Totally. I always
[00:45:41] Martina: advise, sorry, I always advise clients to, uh, to just run MVP and then we'll see, but that's not exactly what I'm doing here, so.
[00:45:50] Olga: Okay, cool. And one question I forgot to ask. What are your thoughts regarding the two biggest SEO updates that happened recently? Like, what are your observations based on your clients?
[00:46:07] Olga: So
[00:46:07] Martina: when it comes to my clients, Well, they don't produce like spam content, etc. So they weren't hit. They don't do any of these like Spam practices. So this is good. But when it comes to the broker update for some we still see some volatility in positions
[00:46:28] Olga: Yeah. But
[00:46:28] Martina: we see them weekly, so that doesn't mean anything because one week we really go up and next week we go back to where we were, so.
[00:46:35] Olga: Yeah.
[00:46:36] Martina: Yeah.
[00:46:37] Olga: Same here.
[00:46:38] Martina: But this is good for me because, you know, I can always tell them that they can improve their content and some of them really should, so.
[00:46:44] Olga: This is a good, a good way to motivate clients. Totally. Okay, Martina. So thanks a ton for being my guest. It was a pleasure, a very nice conversation.
[00:46:55] Olga: I think we touched upon, , very important topics.. And I hope to have you on in the future again.
[00:47:03] Martina: Thank you for inviting me. I really enjoyed it.
[00:47:07] Olga: Yeah, it was cool. So thanks and, and bye bye everyone. Bye.
