How to Use the Knowledge Graph for SEO Benefits (with Jason Barnard)
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[00:00:00] Olga: Are we live? It looks like we are. Hello, everyone. Hi, Jason. Hi, Olga. How are you? I'm doing quite okay. So I am happy we are doing this. Um, I think we, we, we planned it some time ago and it is finally a good moment to have some updates from you. Because of the topic. We're going to talk about, uh, the topic of what's, what's been happening in, in the Google knowledge graph.
[00:00:31] Olga: Knowledge vault is very fascinating and everything so, so
[00:00:36] Jason: well, one thing I, I wanted to say right in the beginning, please is this is a topic I've been looking at for 10, 12 years and I built Kady Q Pro to measure track and figure out how the knowledge graph functions. In 2015, so nine years ago now. And it's always just been this kind of interest and curiosity and how does it work?
[00:00:56] Jason: And it's been very intellectual, I suppose, understanding scientific, and it's suddenly become incredibly practical and useful for SEO and for digital marketing more widely with the advent of generative AI and search for search and experience, Bing chat, perplexity chat, GPT, it's suddenly come to the fore and it becomes useful and it becomes.
[00:01:18] Jason: Something you need for your online digital marketing strategy and for your business and that is super exciting So as of 2024 i'm going to be less geeky and more helpful starting right now
[00:01:31] Olga: Perfect like because like google is uh, google wants us all to be more helpful To create more helpful content. So this is yet yet another kind of edge you can take So before I uh start interviewing you seriously, I have I have a list of questions and if people have questions Uh, you you can you can ask them.
[00:01:52] Olga: We'll we'll answer them. If not, I have I have a ton of questions So i'll be asking my questions. So Are you going to saigon? I heard a little bird told told me you are going to saigon
[00:02:05] Jason: Yes, I am. I'm going to Saigon. It's the SEO Mastery Summit in Saigon organized by MadSingers and it's super. I was there last year, uh, as an attendee.
[00:02:15] Jason: This year I'm going as a speaker and you'll be there too. And I think you're speaking right after me.
[00:02:22] Olga: Yeah, or right before, I'm not sure, but anyway,
[00:02:25] Jason: we are very close. Oh, they pick the best first. How very, how very lovely. They pick you, then me.
[00:02:30] Olga: I think it is, it is good for me because probably you will set the bar so high that it will be hard for me to impress people and this way I will feel well, way safer.
[00:02:43] Jason: Yeah, I'll get on stage and think, how do I follow that? But we'll see. And it's going to be interesting, I will meet you in real life for the first time. Finally. Which is a delight, because we've done 20 shows together. I don't know how many we've done. Yeah, yeah,
[00:02:56] Olga: I think so. So, uh, what's the topic you're going to talk about there?
[00:03:01] Jason: I'm actually going to be talking about your brand cert, the KPI, you never looked at properly. And I, I kind of like talking about the knowledge graph and I like talking about search engine experience and how you can master search engine experience with the skills you already have as a marketer or as an SEO, you already have the skillset.
[00:03:20] Jason: You don't need to change skills that you just need to adapt the way you're working to master search engine experience from Google and the other generative AI. But Mads wanted me to talk about the brand cert because it's an idea that I'd really love to. Which is that we look at the search engine results page for your brand name, and we can learn from Google what it doesn't understand.
[00:03:39] Jason: What it doesn't understand is what's wrong with your digital marketing. We correct that, and the brand search, the search engine results page for your brand name, will then become exactly what you want it to be, what it should be, and what makes sense to your audience, at which point you know that you've sorted out your digital ecosystem.
[00:03:55] Jason: So it becomes both a measuring stick, a KPI But before that it's actually the insight the window into what you need to do So it's a lovely circle what you need to do you do it It appears on your brand SERP that shows you a little bit more what you need to do and so on and so forth Around in a circle.
[00:04:14] Jason: It's wonderful
[00:04:15] Olga: Yeah, perfect, perfect. So I'm happy that I will be able to be there and watch it live and ask questions and all of that, because I am pretty sure watching it live will be even more powerful and a different experience than what we have on YouTube.
[00:04:33] Jason: Thank you. What are you speaking
[00:04:34] Olga: about? I am talking about SU audits.
[00:04:38] Olga: Like this is, this is probably the topic I, I have the most to say about. So I will be sharing my, um, best practices, um, from auditing. I don't really know how many audits I did, but let's say 150 or more in depth SU audits over years. So I will try to try to share with the audience. What are the best things my process what my process looks like and kind of what I what I do to To be able to find something new something more with my audits done Normal, regular audits would probably be fine.
[00:05:15] Olga: So,
[00:05:16] Jason: which is the key because people say, well, I'm going to give a talk about SEO audits. And then you hear more or less the same thing from multiple people. And the idea here from what I understand is you're saying, well, we can take that a step further. I will assume, you know, the basic SEO audit techniques.
[00:05:29] Jason: Yeah. Let's give you something new and different that makes, takes you to another level. Oh, how lovely.
[00:05:34] Olga: Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, Jason. So let's get to the topic of today. I will start with an easy question for you, definitely. But the question, I think still a lot of people do not understand the answer. So what is the knowledge graph?
[00:05:52] Olga: What is it?
[00:05:54] Jason: I've managed to make this simpler over the years. It's a machine readable encyclopedia. It's like wikipedia, but a lot lot lot bigger and wikipedia Let's say six million articles. So six million entities six million things perhaps 200 million facts thing Pieces of information that are actually useful the knowledge graph from google is the same thing as wikipedia, but it's used by machines To read and judge facts in real time, so it can fact check in real time and present facts in real time, and it is now, it is about 50 billion entities, compared to 6 million for Wikipedia, and 1, 500 billion facts.
[00:06:37] Jason: And those figures come from the CaliCube Pro database. We've been tracking the Knowledge Graph since 2015. But data from 2019, when Google announced the size of the Knowledge Graph, which I believe was 5 billion entities, our data shows that it has grown at least tenfold, and we're being relatively conservative with that.
[00:06:59] Jason: At least tenfold over those last five years and that shows you how big it was five years ago and how Incredibly immense it is today and 50 billion simply doesn't make sense to a human brain So we forget trying to imagine how big it is. It's just huge and you can't imagine it. So don't bother trying.
[00:07:18] Olga: Yeah, I won't. So basically, in layman, layman's terms, it means that Google is now, has more knowledge about the world, understands world better. And that semantic SEO, like semantics entities is something we shouldn't probably ignore, right?
[00:07:40] Jason: That's a really good summary. And yes, absolutely. Google knows much, much more than we perhaps imagine.
[00:07:48] Jason: You look at Wikipedia and you think there's a lot of knowledge in there. But it's tiny compared to the knowledge graph and the knowledge graph is still tiny compared to what Google needs to understand it in order to understand the whole world. And, uh, if you want to know where the information from the knowledge graph comes from, you might think it comes from Wikipedia.
[00:08:04] Jason: Some of it does. Some of it comes from IMDB. Some of it comes from Crunchbase. Some of it comes from MusicBrainz. Some of it comes from Wikidata, DBP. DB, DB pedia, all of these are knowledge sources that Google gave the machine to show it what a fact looks like. Then they said to the machine, now go out into the worldwide web and figure out what facts are.
[00:08:28] Jason: So the machine is now learning facts for itself from the huge mess that the internet is. And that means, and that is how it's managed to scale so quickly tenfold in just five years.
[00:08:39] Olga: Uh huh. Okay. Okay. Great explanation. Okay. So what major changes did google introduce in the last months, uh for person entities because there has been a lot going on right so a lot a lot has been happening A lot of people got this new Label, I am now author, right?
[00:09:00] Olga: So what's what has been happening?
[00:09:04] Jason: Well, the first thing to realize is that the knowledge graph understands different entities and an entity is a thing. So a person, a company, uh, a place, an event, uh, a film, a music album. It's trying to understand all of these different things. And it doesn't try to understand them all in the same way because the information sources are very different.
[00:09:25] Jason: And the way that an entity exists online is very different. The way a person exists and presents themselves online is very different to the way a film or a company would present themselves online and also the ambiguity between These different Entities is very different a person will share their name with literally hundreds of thousands of the people So trying to figure out which jason bernard is which?
[00:09:48] Jason: Is quite difficult trying to figure out which olga czar is which is pretty easy because there's only one for a company There's less ambiguity for a music album. There's less ambiguity for a music song There are there's a lot of ambiguity because there are multiple songs with the same name You So the knowledge graph is built to understand these entities and the relationships between them.
[00:10:09] Jason: So who wrote what song? Who is the CEO of which company? Uh, who recorded which song? Uh, who acted in which film and you can see it represented on the Search engine results pages by the knowledge panel, which is on the right hand side on desktop Google uses this information a lot today the Interesting thing about the updates obviously i've haven't answered the question yet But the interesting thing about the updates is they are increasingly focused on specific entity types And specific parts of information about those entity types.
[00:10:42] Jason: So eight months ago. We had the killer whale update which was You The Google engineers basically said to the machine, here's a whole new lot of data. Don't look for companies. Don't look for events. Don't look for film and just look for people. Try and figure out all the people you can understand in here.
[00:11:00] Jason: And so the knowledge graph, uh, grew by three fold, i. e. three times more people in the knowledge graph on July the 18th than there were on July the 14th. But there were no extra companies in the, in the knowledge graph. So the knowledge graph grew immensely, but only for people. That has been hugely interesting because that means that Google is making a very, very, very, very big effort to understand people.
[00:11:29] Jason: And what we understand now is that they're trying to understand authors. Who is the author of this piece of content if they can understand the person they can try to figure out who the or If that person is the author of a piece of content And therefore if the author of a piece of content is an expert is authoritative and is credible
[00:11:47] Olga: Okay, so I remember, you probably also remember, I don't know, 10 years ago or so, there was this Google authorship where you had your name displayed in search results under your article or below, above, it doesn't matter.
[00:12:03] Olga: So this was kind of, I'm not really sure why Google killed this. I think this could have worked. What are your thoughts on that?
[00:12:14] Jason: Um, I think it's a good example of something that people spam. It's an invitation, like the Keywords Matter tag. It's an invitation for people to try to cheat. So the information very quickly becomes useless.
[00:12:28] Jason: So what happens in a lot of these cases is Google says, you can add this information. We will use it to show something in the SERPs. People then think, well, I can cheat, lie, change things, misrepresent myself, and they do it. And when that becomes a problem for, not for the algorithm so much, but for Google's reputation, when it's showing things in the SERP and it looks foolish for showing something that is obviously not true.
[00:12:51] Jason: Then they take it away. Um, that's one explanation i. e we give you this you spam it we take it away because you're spamming it So it's kind of punishment The other is that it's a carrot where they say we'll give you this People use it they take the data and they take it away when they don't need the data anymore And that's probably what's going to be happening with schema markup That would be a subject for an entire different discussion that would probably take two hours and not one
[00:13:17] Olga: Yeah, or the disavow file, right?
[00:13:19] Olga: There was also like a similar I think, um a similar, uh, Thoughts, uh people have that this is why the disavow file is used for used for but okay. I am I am But let's get to the topic. So, um What does all of that all of those changes in person entities in entities? What's what does it mean for seo for us seos?
[00:13:43] Olga: Like what do we do with that?
[00:13:46] Jason: Well, all right, which is a great question. There are two things. I think I will start with the easy one Which is google is obviously thinking well Everybody is now going to start generating ai content because chat gpt is here or the ai is here If we can identify the author then we can prioritize pieces that are written by people You Rather than the pieces written by machines, which makes sense for them, because if they're going to use AI generated content, they might as well generate it themselves, because they do it better than we do.
[00:14:15] Jason: Um, the, I think the, the other point with, with that is if Google can identify who the authors are, then they can link that author to a specialist topic. And if they can do that, they can start to measure topical authority, which is something Corey Gabor talks a great deal about, but obviously topical authority doesn't, right now you can say, well, it applies to the site, but that's, in my approach, a traditional SEO way of thinking the website isn't the key here.
[00:14:45] Jason: The website is a representation of a company or a person So it's the company or the person the website owner who's important And the website isn't the person who wrote it The website is the whole thing and you can have 50 authors on a website Each author is going to have different specialist topics So the topical authority of the entity behind the website and the author of the the content is what makes sense to google So it's trying to evaluate who is the person are they an authority?
[00:15:13] Jason: Are they? An expert are they trustworthy? Are they credible in short and what topic are they authoritative on? So if i'm an authority on knowledge panels if I start talking about Nike running shoes Which you would be more of an authority on that will make no sense in the second Point is, I've already addressed it, is actually the EAT.
[00:15:36] Jason: So the AI idea is saying we can identify which is the AI content, which is the human content. We can prioritize human content over AI content. Once we find the human content, we can prioritize the experts over the non experts. That makes sense. But they can only do it if they understand factually who the person is.
[00:15:54] Olga: So you'll think that Google would or does, um, prioritize that Google prioritizes, uh, human written content?
[00:16:04] Jason: I mean, I don't know, but if I were Google, I would definitely do it. And generally speaking, I've found that if If, if one thinks, if I were the owner of Google or somebody running Google, what would I do to make Google better?
[00:16:18] Jason: That's what I would do. And it makes sense. And Google are not completely different human beings on a different planet to us. They're human beings who are trying to build the best machine, the best recommendation machine. If I were trying to build a recommendation machine and I had the capacity to create the best AI generated content in the world, I wouldn't bother showing anybody else's AI generated content.
[00:16:39] Jason: I would show my own. And I would prioritize the authors who actually wrote the stuff to show something human and meaningful to humans. And that's obviously my opinion, but I think it's a pretty strong argument. You would be a fool if you didn't do that. And Google is certainly not the people who run Google are certainly not fools.
[00:16:56] Jason: Um, so, and the thing about EIT, I think there's a, there's a huge kind of debate about either EIT factors, are there really signals? Can Google truly measure off page signals? Fact is it doesn't actually matter. Because Google's algorithms are trying to evaluate how a person would evaluate and understand the author of the content and the website, or the owner, the website owner.
[00:17:20] Jason: And whether they can do it today or not, they can do it like, let's say, 10 percent of how we would do it as humans. In five years time, they'll be able to do it 50 percent of how we do it as a human. In 10 years time, they'll be able to do it better than we can as a human. So there's really no point in worrying about it, because you need to work on those signals and those factors, however the algorithms understand them.
[00:17:42] Jason: You need to work on them today, because you need to be ready for tomorrow. And the advantage it brings you today is still an advantage. So take it. And it's probably a better advantage, a great advantage simply because nobody else is doing it. And it's like, what's the word? Uh, a bull in a china shop who doesn't have a sheep is in advance of everybody else.
[00:17:59] Jason: No, it's a, the blind man is the king in the No, the psychic man is in a land of blind people, but I had an elephant in a china shop with a sheep and I don't know why.
[00:18:10] Olga: Yeah, it's, it's, it still works. So I get the point and I think everyone, everyone gets the point as well. Uh, okay. So, um, so let's see. Switch to corporate entities, like what changes have been happening regarding that in the last, in the last months, like has been, uh, has Google started working on, on corporate entities as well?
[00:18:34] Olga: Because at first, from what you're saying, it was all only about, about person entities and did they catch up with, with entity with, uh, corporate entities?
[00:18:45] Jason: No, is the short answer. Google got hugely ambitious with person entities in July, and they tripled the number of people, and it was absolutely huge. Oh, and the other thing they did is delete a lot of, uh, knowledge, uh, sorry, uh, subtitles.
[00:19:02] Jason: Uh huh. So, people who had a subtitle, for example, dentist, or author, or, uh, CEO of a company, a lot of them got deleted. And that was Google reclassifying people. Google. And so in the Helpful Content Update, a couple of months later, when they started, when they brought out the Helpful Content Update, I think it was in September, it was all about classification.
[00:19:26] Jason: So the classification appears in both. They reclassified people in the knowledge graph, and then they said, well, we've reclassified, we've made a reclassification system in the Helpful Content Update. The two are linked, because what we saw in the Helpful Content Update is a huge uptick in knowledge panels.
[00:19:43] Jason: So it's the first time we've seen the, the move from the knowledge graph updating to the SERPs updating. Then for corporations in December, I predicted that they would do the same thing and then it looked like they hadn't. But what they did is clean up the pe, the some, some of the person entities and added about 18%.
[00:20:03] Jason: Of corporation entities, so they did a much much smaller Iteration of the same thing for corporation entities. So Right now if you're not understood as a person entities You actually have a problem because a threefold increase last year means that they've understood pretty much everybody They're likely to understood given the current data set they have So if you're not understood today, then you have a terrible terrible terrible Communication with google in terms of the facts about you as a person for a corporation entity You The situation isn't quite as bad, but they had a better understanding generally speaking of corporations before But I would guess that it was a small update because corporations are less important to google right now than people And that in six months time you're going to have a huge update in both and now is the time to prepare for it
[00:20:53] Olga: Uh huh.
[00:20:53] Olga: So how do we prepare?
[00:20:56] Jason: Very good question The the huge problem I said earlier on that google is dealing with a hugely messy internet And I think we tend to perceive the internet to be well organized Because Google and Bing organize it for us, and that's their job. So we search, we find, we complain all the time about the quantity or the quality, sorry, of the results.
[00:21:18] Jason: But at least we don't have to go through all the websites ourselves. And they've done a, such a good job of organizing the Internet, but we often have the impression the Internet is well organized, and it isn't. It's hugely messy. If you think about humankind Yeah,
[00:21:35] Olga: great point. This is like an awesome point.
[00:21:37] Olga: Yeah, totally. Yeah, please go on.
[00:21:40] Jason: You look at how I organise a website, then we look at how Olga organises a website, and we're both professionals, so we probably organise them pretty well, but we certainly don't organise them the same way. We don't code the same way, we don't focus on the same semantics, we don't focus on the same categorisation or the same tagging, so it's already a mess.
[00:22:02] Jason: But then you take somebody who is just using WordPress and knows next to nothing. They installed it very differently, they focus on different things, their interests are different, their priorities are different. And you multiply that by, let's say 4 billion people who are actually building websites. Then the 8 billion people who are actually doing something on the internet.
[00:22:19] Jason: And you realize that these 8 billion people are all doing things differently. Which immediately creates complete havoc then you add to the fact that on one day I will organize a web page one way and then a month later i'll organize it a different way Not because i'm completely mad but because i'm not consistent because human beings are not consistent by nature So over time I will change from website to website I will change and then multiply that by 8 billion people and you can see you've got a huge huge huge problem so the website is very very very very very very very messy and google is very Um, good at organizing, but not good enough to sort out our own inconsistencies and not good enough to sort out our own Consistencies plus the inconsistencies to other people with the same name as us in the case of person entities So if we're the, the, if, if, if we sit down and say, I will clean up my digital ecosystem, my social profiles, the websites that talk about me, my podcast appearances, um, play, uh, places that I appear in media sites, articles about me, articles where I've mentioned, and I am totally consistent from start to finish.
[00:23:32] Jason: Google will understand. It's as simple as that. Clean up your digital ecosystem, make your message clear, consistent, and relevant to whatever it is you do. Same for companies. So the solution is simply organize your digital ecosystem. You can bet your bottom dollar All your competitors as a company or all the people with the same name or all the people Uh who are in the same industry of you as you will not be organizing their digital ecosystem So by definition you have an advantage.
[00:24:02] Jason: Yeah. Yeah, the answer is just Get your act together, clean it up. And I said to a client the other day, first thing we'll do for you is clean up the garbage. And they got really upset because the word garbage is obviously not a very polite word. So I've changed that now we'll clean up the mess. And even that is too rude, but truth is it is garbage and it is a mess.
[00:24:21] Jason: Very few people have anything like a well organized digital ecosystem. So we start up by cleaning up. The inconsistencies, that's the polite way of putting it.
[00:24:31] Olga: Yeah, I remember when we started working together, when, um, I don't remember which member of your team, um, I don't remember the name. Um, she sent me the list of all the mentions she found on me, of me, on the internet, and there was really a mess.
[00:24:49] Olga: Like she found so many things. I wasn't even aware there were such mentions, like even from very, very old or marathons have marathon, something totally unrelated. So that was really a mess. Even though I thought at the time that I am, I am, I am, I am well organized and I am probably, uh, I probably keep, keep that under control, which wasn't definitely the case.
[00:25:14] Olga: So, so told, told, I totally agree with that. But, um,
[00:25:18] Jason: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point is, I mean, I built CaliQ Pro, it's a platform that analyzes Google search results to understand how Google learns and then tells you what you need to change within your digital ecosystem to get Google to understand you and understand you with confidence.
[00:25:36] Jason: And as you rightly said, when a machine does it, our machine, our algorithms, they will find 40, 50, 60 percent more things than you would do it, find doing it manually. So you can clean it up yourself. But you can also bring in the guns if you have a big digital ecosystem and get us to give you the full list because If you've got half of your digital ecosystem cleaned up and the other half not cleaned up you effectively haven't cleaned up the ecosystem
[00:26:02] Olga: Yeah, yeah, totally.
[00:26:03] Olga: So one thing that is bugging me So i'm still when I type my name I am I am and I have been for I think For for half a year or something. I still I am still labeled as Author why am I an author not an seo professional? I think you have already explained that some time ago, but Please this is I believe this is the question a lot of SEOs have because a lot of SEOs from what I see they are Authors in in SERPs.
[00:26:33] Olga: Why is that?
[00:26:35] Jason: Right, because Google is explicitly looking for authors if we go back to the killer whale update that I explained earlier on Yeah, it reclassified or sorry, it removed the subtitle for a vast number of entities Yeah, people, person entities. The only ones that increased We're writers and authors, which indicates very clearly that Google is looking for writers and authors, which supports the idea that it's looking for writers and authors of content with an aim then to apply the EAT signals, whatever they might be.
[00:27:06] Jason: And what it's done is it's defaulted to writer or author when it can, when you're obviously writing about a topic, because then it can say, oh, there's a writer or an author about SEO. And then we're looking at topical authority, SEO. Of a, an author, E A T, and that makes total sense. So, I don't, I would argue it's not a bad thing to be seen as a writer or an author because you're a writer and author on a topic, presumably SEO, which makes a lot of sense.
[00:27:37] Jason: And if you search, uh, jason. barnard. com in the knowledge graph using the knowledge graph explorer on caddycube. pro, the entity, the term associated with my website is SEO. So when Google sees me, it understands I'm an expert. My topical authority through my website is SEO. So it knows that the website belongs to me and it knows that I'm an expert in SEO, therefore SEO is associated with the website, but.
[00:28:08] Jason: My subtitle is currently entrepreneur because I being the person I am who likes to experiment and doesn't like Google to take control Away from me, so I'm a writer like you. I'm a writer about whatever it is It thinks I'm a writer about I want to see if I can change its mind to get me Or to recognize me as an entrepreneur instead of an author and it took me two months to do So Google has now switched me from author to entrepreneur, even though it's explicitly told that the engineers have explicitly told the machine to look for authors.
[00:28:43] Jason: I've managed to override that bias and become an entrepreneur. So for me, that, that shows how effective the CaliCube process for knowledge panels and Google optimization is, but I wouldn't. recommend it to anybody, because being a writer about SEO is actually very powerful if you want your articles to rank.
[00:29:04] Olga: Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I will drop this. Yeah, right, you're right.
[00:29:08] Jason: But, ooh, ooh, but really, really important point. You need to weigh your needs for Google and your needs for your audience, because if your audience search for you and they're thinking, well, shall I take Olga Tsar for my SEO audit? If they see you or Google representing you as a writer or an author, they might think, well, she only writes about it.
[00:29:28] Jason: She doesn't actually do it. So from your audience perspective, it's not a good thing. So which is more important to you, the personal branding and the visibility through Google and through other machines like Google, because all of these machines work the same way, or. Your professional audience Googling your name just before they do business with you, where it says Olga's our SEO expert, at which point they signed on the dotted line because they believe you are the right expert because Google has explicitly recommended you as an SEO expert.
[00:29:58] Jason: Take your choice and it's your business decision and not Google's so I can
[00:30:03] Olga: I can tell you what my choice is I think it's it's writer because i'm already I have too much work too many clients. So Let it be writer. I am a writer. Let's let's stay with that Okay. Okay. So another
[00:30:18] Jason: Actually, sorry, just just to conclude that little panel It's a really important point because people often ask me what do I need to do?
[00:30:24] Jason: And they think, and I can tell them, this is what you need to do for Google. And I can be absolutely sure that's exactly what you need to do for Google. But what you're doing for Google and what you're doing for your audience are not necessarily, or sorry, for your audience in order to drive your business are not necessarily the same thing.
[00:30:39] Jason: But Google's understanding of you is it's understanding of your relationship with your audience. So when you change things, your relationship to your audience, you will change Google's perception of you. And if Google's perception of you is wrong, you change your relationship with your audience. That's the way to correct Google's perception of you.
[00:30:56] Jason: So if you can, as you can see, there's a back and forth and a balance to be found. And what I'm now saying increasingly to our clients is, what is your business goal? As a personal brand or as a corporate brand, when you're communicating, when people are searching your name, what is your business goal? Is it to convert?
[00:31:13] Jason: Is it to rank higher for lots of different content? Is it to have a better digital footprint where you're present, standing where your audience is looking, where they're looking for the solution that you can offer them with the right marketing materials to show them that you can solve their problem and invite them down the funnel?
[00:31:26] Jason: Those are the three basic choices you need to choose. We can then advise you on the balance.
[00:31:32] Olga: Yeah, this is, this is an excellent point. Really, really. Thanks, Jason.
[00:31:36] Jason: Jason. Okay, so I've become a businessman instead of an SEO. I've moved from SEO to digital marketing to business It's really exciting and cool.
[00:31:43] Olga: You are an Entrepreneur now
[00:31:46] Jason: Entrepreneur. Thank you very much. Yeah
[00:31:48] Olga: Okay. So what uh SERP features, uh, I mean rich elements, uh use knowledge graph Well
[00:31:58] Jason: SERP features is what google calls them and most of the SEO community calls them We call them rich elements because it's more open You So as a CaliCube, we've coined the term rich elements because a rich element in a search engine results page can be anything.
[00:32:12] Jason: And that just gives us complete scope, because a rich element could then be search engine experience if you want to look at it that way. So it reduces the limitation, and I kind of figured it was future proof as a term, and I hope I'm right. Um, and I think people underestimate how much the knowledge graph is used in the SERP already.
[00:32:30] Jason: And knowledge panels are the really obvious one. The right, the thing on the right hand side when you search on Google's representations of the facts it has understood about the person, the corporation, the music album, the film that you've searched for. So the knowledge panel is its representation of the facts.
[00:32:47] Jason: Underneath that, let's talk about a person, you have people also search for. So you have people like, I think it's Kevin Indig. Um, I can't remember who else. Other SEOs, Barry Schwartz, let's say, uh, Eric Engy. I've got Rand Fishkin, uh, Joost de Valk, and I've got Kevin Indig, and I think we have Kevin Indig in common, which is delightful.
[00:33:08] Jason: Um, those are the people that Google most closely associates you within your cohort, i. e. the group of people it most associates you with. So yours actually extends quite a long way. You've got about 12? Associated entities and they're all SEOs very clearly SEO. So Google clearly sees you as part of the SEO community I've only got four Cindy crumb is another one But the reason I've only got four isn't because Google understands me less Well, it's that it knows I'm an SEO or I've been in the SEO world, but it now thinks what he's entrepreneur So maybe there are he's between two cohorts.
[00:33:44] Jason: So it's an interesting point at some point My next challenge after becoming an entrepreneur in Google's mind as a subtitle, as a classification, is to get Google to associate me with, oh, let's say Bill Gates, Steve Jobs. Um, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the big, uh, entrepreneurs, obviously it won't associate me with them, it will associate me with entrepreneurs.
[00:34:09] Jason: Business leaders of smaller, probably, uh, multimedia digital companies. So Andrea Volpini might be one. So the people also search for a very much driven by. The knowledge graph another part is in the drop down menu the Related searches as you as you look at it, you will see entities coming in there That's a great way to be present when people are searching around or about your name Um, or indeed within your industry because it will show you related ideas topics companies corporations people So it's a great way to get getting on other people's space and also dominate your own space further down you will get entity boxes Which are like people also search for but more topical.
[00:34:57] Jason: So if you search for the Beatles it will show you entity boxes with similar groups the Rolling Stones the Kinks from that same period or music albums and it will show you Revolver and Yellow Submarine and Sergeant Patterson, whatever else we have for the Beatles. So the entity boxes are Opportunities for Google or Google showing you opportunities to expand your knowledge about this topic, but in a different way, not more of the Beatles, which you would find in the knowledge panel, but more around the Beatles, similar things that you might be interested in.
[00:35:33] Jason: Next up is my new current top favorite. Entity lists. So before if you search for. All right, we'll use 10 best digital marketers. It, it took the list from, let's say the, the list from HubSpot where HubSpot listed the 10 best. Yeah. Yeah. And it would create a feature snippet and just show the 10 best. And it was just basically just taking their content and wasn't thinking for itself.
[00:35:59] Jason: Now those know and in a lot of cases those no longer exist It gives you a list of entities with the name a little drop down Yeah and it shows you from around the web and it says From sources around the web and if you click on them, you will see Most of them have a knowledge panel and all of them have a kgm id i.
[00:36:19] Jason: e They're present in the knowledge graph if whether the knowledge panel triggers is a secondary question So in order to be in the entity list, which is google's choice Of the best 10 digital marketers. You have to have a knowledge panel be in the knowledge graph. And then the question is, how does it choose who goes first and who goes last?
[00:36:40] Jason: That is all about notability, credibility, which is why at CaliCube, we don't talk about EEAT, we talk about NEEATT, which includes notability, experience, expertise, authoritativeness, trustworthiness, and transparency. Let's see. So you then end up with entity lists which are hugely important and we have currently three of our clients CQ have come to us to say explicitly, we used to be in the top 10 list from this article that used to be a feature snippet.
[00:37:14] Jason: We're now no longer there because it's been replaced by the entity list, and we don't have a knowledge panel builders, a knowledge panel, build our notability and get us to the top of that entity list, which is Google's recommendation.
[00:37:25] Olga: Huh. Okay. So a question, how do I build notability?
[00:37:31] Jason: Well, notability is something people associate with what Wikipedia de defines as notability, which is.
[00:37:39] Jason: Do you have an article in the New York Times? Do you have an article in the BBC? Do you have an article in the Guardian? The big hitters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Wikipedians don't understand different industries, so they have to use the big hitters to judge whether or not you're notable. We're human beings.
[00:37:56] Jason: We don't have the capacity or the knowledge to understand. Google's using an algorithm that can niche down so effectively. That the authority, sorry, that being notable within a particular field is incredibly niche. So you can be a notable poodle parlor in Paris, if you're mentioned by the poodle, poodle parlor of Paris association, you become notable, even though the poodle parlor of Paris association is definitely not something that Wikipedia would associate with notability.
[00:38:28] Jason: So if you look at notability, it simply means being mentioned, being recommended, being Uh, being prioritized by the most important authoritative sources within your niche industry, within your geo region for your entity type. So Poodle Power of Paris is a great example because it's about a company in Paris that deals with niche.
[00:38:53] Jason: Poodles and hairdressing of poodles in particular. Um, so notability is a very niche concept for google So you build the notability by pr which is why I say to a lot of our clients who come to and say well You're doing seo. The answer is no what we're doing is much closer to pr public relations and media relations Packaged for SEO.
[00:39:20] Jason: So CaliCube is a huge SEO knowledge. We've got over 40, 000 hours of experience in SEO between the team members. But our primary role is to package PR and media and content for Google, not the SEO itself. So we're packaging, we're using SEO as a way to package and prepare and to feed basically information and data to Google.
[00:39:47] Olga: Yeah, perfect. So let's switch gears and let's Talk about the ai chat gpt sge. So we have a question But before we get to the question, which is whether chat gpt uses a knowledge graph how Does sge use a knowledge graph does it use does it rely on on the knowledge graph? Like what what what are your thoughts on
[00:40:12] Jason: that?
[00:40:14] Jason: Um, well, the really short answer is yes It does There's a huge debate, um, what debate? There's a whole huge technological theoretical thing going on where Large language models are trained on huge data sets and they're predictive models that will tell you or Sorry, create a text based on the next problem the most probable next word.
[00:40:36] Jason: So it's a probability machine Yeah, it predicts which is why you get hallucinations because it can't fact check which is the question chat GPT One of its huge problems is it doesn't or it didn't fact check and would therefore hallucinate and say something really idiotic Like for example for me, I asked it what does Jason Barnard do and at one point it said Oh, sorry.
[00:40:55] Jason: Yeah. Well, sorry. Tell me everything about Jason Barnard's career. And at one point it said Jason Barnard has created multiple multi million company, multi million dollar companies. I didn't know that. But it's not true.
[00:41:09] Olga: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:10] Jason: I'm just kidding. But it's probable that I would have done because I'm an entrepreneur and it's probable that I would have worked for Google because I talk about Google so much.
[00:41:17] Jason: Yeah. So it makes sense because it's a prob, it's probable in terms of words. word association. Oh, let's say LLMs are word association games. It's a really silly way of putting it. Um, knowledge graphs were built by a whole chunk of other developers, um, and engineers, and they didn't talk to each other. So they had no, there's no real way for these LLMs and knowledge graphs to communicate in real time.
[00:41:49] Jason: So what they can do is fact check the information they put into the large language model. But then once the large language model starts working, it can't fact check in real time as it moves forwards. And that's a huge problem. And Google with such engine experience have partially solved it. Because they have a huge, what I would call a lookup table.
[00:42:09] Jason: In fact, Bill's flasky called it lookup table, which is a way for them to fact check very specific parts. So for example, right now, you will see in some search generative experience results. This inflection comes from the knowledge graph and what Google are doing is fact checking dates and places. So they've already started and that's going to evolve it's going to develop and it's going to become from places dates to Relationships between people human beings because that's something that are very permanent They started with the permanent stuff things that never change So it would be able to easily fact check who is my mother who is my sister.
[00:42:49] Jason: It would be more Problematic for them to fact check something that might change who is Jason Barnard's wife. What is Jason Barnard's current job? You So if you look at it that way, yes, there's a certain amount of fact checking, but it's the fact checking on the things that will never change the absolute truths.
[00:43:07] Jason: And then they will evolve over time to build that out, to become fact checking more widely. So the answer is yes, but not entirely. Um, as often, you know, um, actually, no, it's not, it depends. It doesn't depend. It's very systematically. Things that don't ever change can be FactCheck. Things that are likely or might change cannot be FactCheck right now.
[00:43:29] Olga: Yeah, yeah. So, kind of in a nutshell, does it mean that, um, it is a pre prerequisite, uh, to be included in SGE to, to have a, to have your present presence in the knowledge graph? I guess it, it, it is something you, you have to take care of if. Yeah, you want to, because assuming that SGE continues, continues to grow, so
[00:43:55] Jason: Yeah.
[00:43:56] Jason: Well, I mean, if you, if you look at Gemini, uh, SG or Bing Chat, chat, they're all evolving towards the idea of, or that they're all using the idea of the web reading real time results to make sure that they're up to date, which is another problem large language models have, is that the data is out to date.
[00:44:14] Jason: So they then supplement it with. The search results that they can find at the time The next step is to supplement it with the knowledge graph Information factual information for the knowledge graph. So you've got those three stages. One is pure prediction with lots of hallucination Step two is let's try to fact check and keep it up to date with the search results, which we find relatively reliable third step let's Fact check with the knowledge graph and hopefully then we can start keeping the knowledge graph up to date in real time Which is a long way in the future, but with that triple System the tripod system, let's call it the tripods SGE system.
[00:44:56] Jason: I've just named it right now They can get pretty close and they don't get it wrong very often They can be quite explicit and specific and that that's hugely powerful given where they started less than a year ago Um, over time, you have no choice. If you're not in the knowledge graph, you will end up being either completely excluded from SGE or so invisible that it won't matter if your competitors are in the knowledge graph.
[00:45:23] Jason: And once again, you've got to look at things not from a, an absolute personal point of view, but from a relative competitive point of view. If Google doesn't have the facts about any of your competitors, it's going to take the least worst. And that might be you. If it has the facts about all of them, it's going to take the ones it's most confident in, and the one it feels is most credible, and that needs to be you.
[00:45:46] Jason: So it's up to you to move yourself from being the least worst choice. Of a bad lot for the best choice of a really well understood, incredibly credible lot. And that means building your presence in the knowledge graph, building your credibility, building your neat, your notability, expertise, experience, authoritativeness and trustworthiness and transparency.
[00:46:08] Jason: And also not, not just building it in your own mind. You're saying, well, it's obvious we're the most credible. Making sure you demonstrate it in every piece of content you possibly can across the entire web. Don't just focus on your website. Yeah, yeah,
[00:46:21] Olga: perfect. So here's a question Is it possible to remove a knowledge graph from google search?
[00:46:28] Olga: Should I remove structured data from my website or take some other action? How do I get rid of my knowledge panel?
[00:46:35] Jason: That's a question. I've been asked by clients, but i've never been asked live on air. So this is a bit a bit. Um, Awkward. Yes, you can or we can at CaliCube, but it's really delicate. Um, I mean, I think anybody who thinks about You know What I've said about if you can join the dots for Google, so clean up your digital ecosystem, join the dots for Google, make everything clear, consistent, and relevant, you will get a knowledge panel.
[00:47:04] Jason: Whoever you are, it doesn't matter who you are, Google will build you a knowledge panel if you're clear, consistent, and relevant across your entire digital ecosystem from your website right out to every single mention of you across the entire web. If you just reverse that whole thing,
[00:47:22] Jason: you can see exactly what you need to do. Create unclear, inconsistent, irrelevant information and the knowledge panel will disappear.
[00:47:32] Olga: Hopefully.
[00:47:34] Jason: We've done it, but I won't tell you for who. Uh
[00:47:38] Olga: huh. Okay. Okay
[00:47:42] Jason: But yeah The number of people who don't want to knowledge panel is relatively limited I mean, it's people who want to keep their private lives private and they don't want google to particularly shout about them Which which I get um, so yeah, the thing about it is google is this simplistic Childish machine that learns by repetition and as long as we're at this stage It's all very simple.
[00:48:06] Jason: Um, and I've been talking recently about singularity and when the machines get smarter than us, once they get smarter than us, it's going to get much, much more complicated to manage how these machines understand us and therefore represent us. And that's a hugely frightening future. But the only thing I'll say today is number one, I'm aiming to figure out how we can manage it as best we can.
[00:48:28] Jason: But if you haven't sorted it out today. With the machine being very simplistic, learning by repetition, you're in huge trouble when the machine grows up from child to an adult, adolescent to an adult, becomes smarter than we are. If it doesn't understand you as a child, trying to get it to understand you as an adult, when it's an adult, is going to be a huge, huge, hugely challenging task.
[00:48:50] Olga: Yeah, I can imagine. And when do you think Google will become an adult or adolescent at
[00:48:56] Jason: least? Um, Fabrice Canal suggested to me that the next huge revolution is going to be quantum computing and that's 10 years down the road because the limitation on Google and Bing today is not so much the technology, but the Of knowledge graphs, large language models.
[00:49:15] Jason: It's the capacity, the communicative, sorry, the calculative capacity, the computational capacity. And the day they've got quantum computing, they can basically throw the kit, as we say in English, they can throw the kitchen sink at it and make it work. And until that, we probably aren't going to be in that kind of trouble.
[00:49:32] Jason: But obviously, you know, I'm not, I'm not a fortune teller, but I do. I do tend to say, oh, it's going to be five years. But I think in five or six years time, we're going to start really struggling And the clear, consistent, relevant message is going to be. out of date and we'll have to have something stronger and that's what we're working on at CaliCube right now is to build CaliCube Pro to move from being a machine that simply replicates the clear consistent message to a machine that can understand how these machines or at least reverse engineer how these machines understand so that we can feed them but I shouldn't have talked so much about that I just love the future.
[00:50:07] Olga: Please do. Okay so a newbie question again I don't have a knowledge panel how do I get one? In
[00:50:16] Jason: a nutshell. Right. In a super nutshell, clear, consistent, relevant corroboration around the entire web, but in real terms, it's a really simple process. You need an entity home, which is where the entity lives, the person or the company.
[00:50:32] Jason: And it's the about page on the person's personal website or the about page for the company on the corporate website. It's always the about page. It's not the home page. It's not the contact us page It's a dedicated page that explains who the person let's talk about person who the person is what they do Which audience they serve why they're credible and for a company.
[00:50:54] Jason: It's exactly the same thing Who they are who they serve what it is. They offer why they're credible From there, oh, I'm sorry, you write on there, those information, that, that information, sorry, in a, in a very clear, consistent description. Then you make sure that all of the corroborative sources from your social media sites to your podcast appearance, footnotes, to the byline on your, on your author pages, uh, on your articles.
[00:51:28] Jason: Every article that talks about you, somebody's written an article about you, get them to update the information so it says the same thing. Then, from your Entity Home, you link from the Entity Home to all of these incredibly, the powerful, the relevant sources. So that Google then follows the link, sees the same information.
[00:51:47] Jason: Get a link back from the corroborative source back to the entity home or the home page. It doesn't actually matter, but try to get it to the entity home if you can. The about page for a person on the website, the about page for the company on the corporate website. So Google ends up in an infinite loop of self corroboration.
[00:52:05] Jason: It keeps going back and forward, seeing the same information, ends up at the same place again and again and again with the same information. By pure repetition, it ends up understanding. It's
[00:52:16] Olga: as simple as that. Okay. Okay. And, and this is what you are helping people do because like, if I were to do it alone, I would have never done it.
[00:52:27] Olga: So,
[00:52:28] Jason: um, Well, I think there are two points there is number one, excuse me, I'm starting with multiple. One is people don't themselves think, and rightly so, you know, I can probably do this myself. I can clean up my digital ecosystem. They miss a lot of stuff. They prioritize the wrong stuff So they waste a lot of time on things that aren't important And they spread it over too much time and google doesn't like things that are spread over time because it sees Inconsistencies throughout that time so they slow the whole process down and the second thing is If you've got the time do it.
[00:53:00] Jason: It's really simple and there's a pdf download on our website Which explains the 17 steps you can walk through to do the whole thing and it will work every time if you actually follow The steps which a lot of people don't that consistency is difficult even when you're trying to do it But our clients actually come.
[00:53:18] Jason: Oh, But the the our clients come from the group of people who say right I understand what I need to do But I don't have the time to do it. I would rather pay somebody else to do it hand it over to you I know it's going to be done better I know it's going to be done faster And I can put it out of my mind sleep peacefully and know that you're looking after it.
[00:53:35] Jason: So it's a service for ceos founders people who have the the money and the Inclination to say I would rather hand this off to somebody else. But at caddycube we have the approach to say You We believe this is powerful. We believe that it's important. And so we believe that everybody should be able to do it.
[00:53:56] Jason: And we share all of this information completely for free. Download that PDF, follow it, spend the time to do it, and it will work. Yeah,
[00:54:05] Olga: totally, totally. So, this question. Given that the Knowledge Graph aggregates data from various sources, does it handle real time information updates, especially in cases of rapidly developing news stories or events?
[00:54:21] Jason: Oh, I like that question. Uh huh. A good one. Yeah. Well, I've done yeah Wikipedia is more or less real time and I'll give you a couple of examples One of which was my experiment where I was updating wikipedia pages about my music group about myself and about my cartoon I had three wikipedia pages where Wikipedia was talking about me The cartoon I made my music group and the fastest update I ever saw Was for the music group and it took less than 10 minutes You So there is a feed, but I can build a feed from Wikipedia.
[00:54:58] Jason: So Google have obviously done it. There's a feed from Wikipedia. That's if it's in Wikipedia, it will be almost immediate. Uh, when the, uh, Prince Philip died. A few years ago, the ex Queen of England's husband, the Claim This Knowledge panel disappeared and the Wikipedia, the description from Wikipedia updated within hours of his death.
[00:55:26] Jason: And the reason I say the Claim This Knowledge panel disappeared is because for people who are deceased, you can no longer claim the Knowledge panel, which is a lovely thing. snippet of information that I really like. So the Wikipedia was feeding directly into Google so that it could understand a, to update the description, to update the, uh, date, the, the, the born and the, the, the DC state, and then also remove the claim, this knowledge panel.
[00:55:57] Jason: If you move forwards away from Wikipedia, um, for example, Google books isn't in real time. If you then move away to IMDB, it's even more not in real time, and IMDB won't control a piece of information on its own. But, for something like football scores, American football scores, um, prices that it might show in a product knowledge panel, those are all direct feeds from sources that Google is either paying for or not paying for.
[00:56:31] Jason: Has taken as hose feeds and I had an example, interestingly, if I was hitchhiking, strangely enough from my house in the South of France to my accountant's office in the South of France, because I didn't have a car, I still don't have a car. And the person who gave me a lift was asking about the prices for his, um, uh, his Airbnb.
[00:56:55] Jason: It's not an Airbnb, it's on a different system. And he explained to me his problem and it. Immediately became apparent. I can't remember the name of the platform that there is a direct feed from that platform into Google and Google is simply feeding that into the knowledge graph. So answer. The question is a lot of information isn't real time, but when Google has to have it real time.
[00:57:16] Jason: It gets a feed if it can get a feed it uses wikipedia if wikipedia is available and That with sge is going to become even more important So you can expect google can't get a feed from everybody about everything. That's simply not possible It's going to have to create algorithms that can keep up with With the moving world in a reliable manner, and that's a huge challenge if you think about it, if the world is a mess and Google currently can't understand it properly, the world is changing an incredible right that we find as humans difficult to understand in our own lives, Europe, my own life is running away with me today.
[00:57:57] Jason: Imagine 8 billion lives plus all the other different things happening and they're all running away. How on earth are they going to solve that problem? I'm sitting here with my popcorn, watching, waiting to see how they're going to solve it. I'm going to enjoy the show a great deal.
[00:58:13] Olga: Yeah, me too. So one
[00:58:15] Jason: final question.
[00:58:16] Jason: I've got no idea what's going to happen. I said, Oh, I can tell the future. I can't, I've got no idea.
[00:58:23] Olga: Let's watch the show. Right.
[00:58:25] Jason: Yes. I just said it very badly.
[00:58:30] Olga: So one final question. You, you touched upon claiming knowledge panels. So recently people have been having problems claiming knowledge panels, including me.
[00:58:39] Olga: So Is there any update? Like, has, has this situation, uh, been fixed? What, what's going on?
[00:58:48] Jason: Um, I don't know the ins and outs of it, but right now it seems that the old system of claiming through search console or through a social media channel is now redundant, at least temporarily, and that you have to go through the human process.
[00:59:04] Jason: of submitting your social media profiles or proof of who you are or proof of who your company is. I guess, I am guessing that what was happening is that there were too many knowledge panels being claimed by the wrong people and then a huge amount of work for Google to sort it out, to give the knowledge panels back to the right person.
[00:59:25] Jason: I'll give you an example that didn't happen, that could have happened, is Julia Roberts hadn't claimed to knowledge panel and if you clicked on the link, you could claim it through a website That was simply a fan website So one of her fans could have claimed to a knowledge panel and as far as I know they didn't But then you can see that Google has a huge problem of allowing people to do it automatically leads the way to A huge number of problems where they then have to sort it out manually.
[00:59:59] Jason: And if you look at it from Google's perspective, the back and forth with the legal team, lawyers, uh, different people getting involved to figure out who is the rightful owner of this knowledge panel is going to be hugely costly because it's, takes up a huge amount of human time. Whereas the validation process, doing it by hand, which is boring for us, is simply somebody sitting in an office in front of a computer screen, seeing the name, the proof, they're told exactly what to look for, and they can make a decision in 20 seconds.
[01:00:32] Jason: Yeah, at which point Google are basically saving themselves an awful lot of work on the on correcting stuff by saying well We're just gonna make it more difficult to actually get that thing and we're gonna use humans to correct it But they must be I mean the teams must be vast to do that at the scale Google are currently doing it But it also brings an interesting point is whenever you're faced with Something at Google that you want changed be it in a knowledge panel or any other aspect of Google.
[01:00:59] Jason: Remember the scale You And remember that they've got a very, very, very, very optimized process in place where the person making the judgment call has, let's say, 20 seconds to make the decision. So if you make it really simple for them, they will decide in your favor. And if you make it complicated, they With lots of explanations, with links they have to follow, uh, they, when they click on the link, the text that they need to be looking for isn't obvious.
[01:01:28] Jason: They will simply say no, because they have a time limit on how much time they can spend on each particular case. So, when you're doing it, my huge piece of advice is make it really, really, really simple for them, and sit back, pretend you're in their shoes, And think if I didn't know anything about me What can I provide that would make that snap decision as easy and as possible for that person?
[01:01:56] Jason: Yeah,
[01:01:57] Olga: perfect. Perfect, Jason. So it looks like we, we are, uh, like an hour have passed and, uh, yeah, I didn't know when, when it happens. And, uh, it looks like we are going to meet in, uh, in a month and a week, something like that in Saigon. And if someone from people watching is going to, to be in Saigon, uh, during, uh, for the SEO mastery summit, please come and join us.
[01:02:24] Olga: join us. We'll be talking one after another and we'll finally meet in person, take a lot of selfies and, and have fun. Right.
[01:02:35] Jason: Yeah. I think it's going to be brilliant. I'm really looking forward to it. It's a month and a week, as you say. Yeah. I'm looking forward to meeting you. I'm looking forward to meet everybody there.
[01:02:43] Jason: And, and it's, it's a really great. Uh country, it's a really lovely town and it's a really great conference. So what more could you ask for? Yeah
[01:02:53] Olga: I can't wait. So jason Thanks a lot. And let's do it again in the future. This is like our tradition
[01:03:00] Jason: almost. Yeah, it's becoming a tradition How lovely thanks a lot.
[01:03:03] Jason: Okay. Bye.
[01:03:04] Olga: Bye. Yeah. Thanks everyone. Bye. Bye
