Nathan Gotch
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[00:00:00] Hi everyone, welcome to SEO podcast by SEO Sly. I'm Olga Zarr, your host. And today I have a very special guest. I've been following this guest for a very long time, so I am really honored to have him here. So this is Nathan Gotch. Nathan, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Super excited to be here. Yeah.
[00:00:20] Awesome. So Nathan, for people who don't know you, but I am, I'm not sure if there are a lot of such people. Can you like briefly introduce yourself? And then I will start interrogating you. Oh, I can't wait. Um, so, so I, I am Nathan Gotch. Uh, I started my business in 2013 was when I started, but did my first official, uh, year in 2014 under Gotch SEO.
[00:00:47] Um, and I've, I've been. Doing this thing for a really long time. I I've really been for the last going on 10 years now at this point, um, worked on hundreds of SEO campaigns. Uh, I have a training program that I've had hundreds and now probably thousands of students gone through at this point. Um, and then I also create a lot of content.
[00:01:05] So, um, that's how most people probably know me because I tend to create a lot of content. Um, and so, you know, over the last 10 years, hopefully at some point, some of you have seen me, um, but at a, at a high level, um, I've just basically been completely obsessed with SEO for 10 years straight. So, um, so yeah, similar to me regarding obsession and also for around 10 years.
[00:01:30] Yeah. I remember when I started working in SEO, maybe not when I was starting, but when I started at, at a different SEO agency in Poland, a very big one, I remember they were using your templates for a lot of big clients. Oh, that's awesome. That's where I remember. Yeah. That's super cool. They probably changed a lot since then.
[00:01:52] My templates. But, uh, but yeah. Yeah. But I remember they have in their kind of, um, the place where, where they store stored all their best resources for new people who are coming. And I remember your templates where they're, yeah, that's super cool. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. So let me start with a lot of questions I'll be asking you.
[00:02:15] So first, how did it all start? So around 2013, you're saying, so how did it happen that you landed in SEO? Yeah. So it actually, it actually started before then to be honest. So I, I actually, um, this is 2011 going into 2012. Um, I was actually going into my senior year of college and I was actually going to be, my path was to be a lawyer.
[00:02:41] So that was kind of what I was going to do. I was getting a degree in political science and I was, my plan was to take the LSAT and then get into law school. Um, but little did my family know that I actually didn't want to do that. Uh, so, um, so what I really wanted to do was I, I had always wanted to do something online.
[00:02:59] Um, I didn't really know that I like wanted to run a business per se, um, but I have like prior to that when I was in high school and actually even in middle school, I'd play a lot of online video games. So, um, and I was like a very obsessive type of behavior. Like I would, I, I prioritized playing the video games over school.
[00:03:18] Like that was how bad it was. Um, and so I always loved the internet. And, um, and I just, like, I even remember the early days of YouTube, like, like when it was so, like, before Google even owned YouTube, I was on there. It was the greatest thing on earth. Um, but of course I didn't know, I had no idea that it would be like, there'd be business implications.
[00:03:37] Um, so going into my senior year, this is 2011, I started, I just had the idea. I'm like, you know, I'm just going to search for ways to make money online. That was what I wanted to do. Like, I'm going to, yeah, that was my beginning too. How to earn money. Right. And that's a pretty common story. Um, it's not, you know, most people who end up kind of where we are seem to that kind of is the catalyst.
[00:03:57] Um, but so I did that. I searched and I stumbled upon all kinds of ideas, doing paid surveys, you know, writing essays for college students, not saying that was a good idea. Um, and just anything, even selling my, my college books, like on Amazon, I even tried that. Um, and then one day I was like, man, this is, I was doing paid surveys, like crazy.
[00:04:18] And my, my wife now, but she's my girlfriend at the time. She's like, you can't like just do paid surveys for the rest of your life. So, um, so anyway, I was like, yeah, I don't think this is super scalable. I was making like 10 cents an hour. So, um, and so I was like, I think I need to make a pivot here. Uh, and so I found this course, uh, basically by accident, uh, it was called web colleagues and it was a 47 course.
[00:04:42] And like I was a college student, I was broke. So I was like, Ooh, I don't know if I can pay 47 bucks. This is like the biggest investment. Um, and I was like, all right, well, I guess I'm going to do it. I had no money. So I went and did it. And um, this course was in hindsight, not. The highest quality thing I've ever seen, but it did actually show me some stuff that really became like the starting point for what I did.
[00:05:05] And one of the things that showed me was how to start a blog. Uh, it said, you know, like it showed all these different ways to make money online. And one of them was like, just start a blog, right. About something you like, and then monetize I feel like I could do that. Um, cause I already, I was an okay writer being in political science.
[00:05:20] So, um, so what I did is I had to figure out like, what would I even create a blog on? Uh, cause I had no skills. So I had to figure out what that was going to be, but I realized like, all right, well, what's like, what's the one thing that I know how to do at this point. And I was, uh, um, on my college baseball team.
[00:05:38] Um, and so I was like, I know how to pitch, I know how to throw a baseball. So why don't I just start a baseball pitching blog? So that's what I did. I started a baseball pitching blog and like most people experience when you start a blog, I had zero traffic and no one cared about it. Um, and I was writing content like crazy, just like anything.
[00:05:57] I was just throwing stuff at the wall, writing any type of content. Didn't even matter. Um, and then of course, months went by and I'm like, okay. I don't think this is going to work. I need to do something. Yeah. So I need to do something different. So when right back to Google, once again, I was like, how do I get traffic to my blog?
[00:06:12] And come to find out SEO is one of the best ways to get traffic to your website without paying for ads, which of course I had no money, so I couldn't pay for ads. So I had to, I had to use SEO. Um, and so when I found that it was like, I, I literally hit the jackpot. I was like, Whoa, I can, I can have people come to my, like, I can create content and Google will send me traffic.
[00:06:36] That was like a mind blowing revelation. Um, and so I started just like implementing everything I was learning, like every little thing that I could find, I'd be like, all right. And then I'd go and implement on my blog and be like, Oh. That did something. And then I just would go back and forth doing that over and over.
[00:06:50] And then eventually I started getting traffic. I started making money from AdSense. Uh, I made my first affiliate sale. I still remember where I was when I made that first sale. I was like on the way to go bowling one night and I was like, Oh my gosh, I made a commission, like it was like crazy. I was like, this is, and then as soon as that happened, I was like, this is what I want to do.
[00:07:09] Like, I, I want, like, I knew at that point, I was like, this is what I want to do. Uh, and this is 2012 and I was about to graduate. Um, and then I was like, well, I got to getting my skills better. Like my longterm ambition was to be able to take clients on. Cause I knew that was like one of the best ways to monetize this skill set.
[00:07:28] So. So for me, I was like, all right, I'm just going to create, keep creating websites and just keep ranking them and keep refining my skills. And this is always like, people think this is weird when I say this, but like, I wasn't even trying to really make money. I was just trying to get better at SEO. I know it's a very weird thing, but I like, I, I would literally like, I create an undercounter ice maker reviews, website TRX reviews, same with me, really very similar beginnings.
[00:07:53] Yeah. So I was creating all these sites and at the time it was much easier to rank. Right. Yeah. So I could. I did a lot more gray hat stuff back then. So I would, you know, create a, create private blog networks or use web 2. 0. And I would hit the site, um, and just, you could rank within 30 days. Like it was so easy.
[00:08:10] Um, then, of course, a lot has changed since then, uh, but that was the beginning is like all these sites and then, um, and then fortunately, I don't want to say fortunately, but I got laid off from my job in 2013. I was doing security after I graduated and I would be working on my side projects, like the whole, like every free moment I had at work on my side projects and I got laid off from that job and I was like, all right, well, I got to make a decision here.
[00:08:34] So either I can stay in California. Try to get a job here in SEO, or, um, I can move to St. Louis to be with my wife. She was my girlfriend at the time. Um, and so I made the decision just to come to St. Louis. And I came here and my goal was like, all right, I'm going to get an SEO job. Like I'm just going to try to work in house somewhere.
[00:08:54] So I applied for every single SEO company in St. Louis at the time. Like every agency, anyone who wanted SEO, I was there applying. I got one response, uh, and one interview, and, uh, I did not get the job. So that was the point where I was like, okay, well now I've got my second, uh, decision to make here. And that was, I'm going to have to just go all in on getting clients.
[00:09:18] So, um, so I made that, that decision. I had, you know, my, my startup capital was 500 bucks cause I had a 500, I had a credit card with a 500 limit. So I was like, this is it. This is my startup capital. So similar. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that was the beginning. And so that's when I started, got, I actually had started Gotch SEO, um, in 2013, I like just registered it.
[00:09:40] I didn't do a whole lot of it. And then 2014 was really when I started. Actually, the end of 2013, it's like this October, 2013, I started to work to get clients. Um, and I did in a variety of ways. I went on Craigslist every single day and replied to every single gig that was about SEO, like every single one.
[00:10:00] I actually got some clients from that. I got my first kind of handful of clients from that, got some white label service partnerships, and that was giving me a nice foundation to work with. Um, and at the same time it was building up my SEO on Gotch SEO so I could rank for St. Louis SEO or St. Louis SEO company.
[00:10:16] Um, and then I also would every single day go on Quora and answer questions. So like I was using those three things and like that was enough to get me going. And I, I got my first handful of clients, uh, and quickly, I, my, my huge goal at the time was I wanted to get to 3, 000 a month. Like if I could get to 3, 000 a month, I figured I'd be like, good to go for the rest of my life.
[00:10:37] Um, and so, and then I got there like really fast and I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah, I guess I wouldn't mind making more, I guess I'll go for it. Uh, and then I just kind of went all in on it at that point. I was like, wow, I actually see that I could potentially do this. Um, and I ended up, I remember this like my first, my first year, 2014.
[00:11:00] I think I made 2, 2 0 3 in revenue my first year, and then I made, I was like 105 or 108 in profit my first like full year. And I was like, wow, this is insane. I can actually do this. I can actually like, make, that was that, that was the most money I had ever seen ever in my life. So, um, so it just opened the door for me and I was like, I, I can, I'm gonna, I'm doing this.
[00:11:25] So, um. So now I run a bigger business, uh, that's very different now, but, but that's kind of the, if you want to call it the origin story of, of kind of where I got going, so. Okay, and I read that you also had the agency at some point and this is, I think, basically what brought you to create this whole Gotch SEO system, right?
[00:11:50] If I am understanding this correctly, so can you tell me more about how you started to grow? Because I, because I understand you are not a single SEO consultant like I am. There is basically one more person here for with me. I am not an agency. And you were at some point, so tell me, can you tell me more about the growth, how many people there were, the routes, kind of, what were you struggling with when you were, when you were running an SEO agency?
[00:12:19] Yeah. Yeah. So it was when I first started, it was literally just me and a couple of freelancers. Um, and that was, that taught me a lot. And I realized like, I can't work 16 hours a day forever. That was when I realized I was like, this is going to be like unsustainable. Um, like I wasn't even like going out to dinner with my wife.
[00:12:41] I was just like, it was all just constant work all the time. And I could feel this is like 2004. 15 ish. I started to feel kind of like, yikes, this is going to be really difficult to do. For an extended amount of time. Um, I was making good money by most standards, but like, I was going to get burned out. So I started thinking about, okay, like, how do I, how do I expand out of this?
[00:13:05] Um, and what I did is I started just looking for different ways to outsource little components of things that I was doing. Um, and that worked well, I, you know, I, I had a couple of VAs and freelancers that were doing work for me, worked with a couple of vendors and I started to get a little bit of relief.
[00:13:21] Then, um, funny thing is I actually hired, uh, my best friend from college and then actually hired my wife. Uh, they were my first two like in house employees. Uh, so that was the, that was the big, um, turning point there, but I just made so many mistakes with that. I just had no clue how to run a business, no idea how to manage.
[00:13:41] Yeah, what was that? Can you name some of those mistakes? Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. We can. Yeah. I mean, how long do we have? Um, as much as needed. ? Yeah. Uh, many mistakes. Uh, so, uh, and of course this is all in retrospect and now I know what mistakes not to make, but I'll just tell you at the time the mistakes I, I made, number one by far is I had no systems.
[00:14:06] No systems. So I thought that people would just solve my problems and that was a huge mistake because I just figured like, Hey, I'm bringing on and you know, just figure out what to do and like, let's go, you know, that was kind of like my, my mentality because that's kind of how I am. I'm, I'm a self starter.
[00:14:23] I can go and do things without people telling me what to do. Kind of. That's how entrepreneurs are really. Um, but I didn't realize not everyone's the same way. Right. And that's it. So I had to learn that and. So now for me, it's all thinking about the systems, right? Like before you even bring someone onto your team, like, do we have a foundation for them to succeed?
[00:14:44] And if the answer's no, then you shouldn't bring them on. Like you're doing them a disservice. You're doing the business a disservice. It's bad all around. Right. So, um, so at that time, that was like the biggest mistake I made was like, you know, my You know, nothing against anyone who I hired, which is my, my wife and best friend.
[00:15:01] It was my fault. Um, but they just didn't know what to do, like, and it wasn't their fault. It was just cause I didn't know what to do. So I was like, yeah, come to work and I'll pay you. I'm like, do some stuff. Like that was basically what it was. Um, and so that did not work out super well for me. Uh, and so I had to refine my processes to make things better.
[00:15:23] Um, and what I found out is like to run a lean biz, like a lean SEO services business, you don't need a massive amount of in house employees. There's certain, there's certain things for in house that is really important. Um, but there's so like, fortunately the SEO industry is, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of foundational pieces in the SEO industry, a lot of structure.
[00:15:49] There's a lot of people that can do a lot of things really, really well on kind of like granular micro level. So I figured I'm like, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to kind of, I'm going to build a team, but it's not necessarily going to be. An in house team per se, it's going to be a team that's going to be able to execute the work in the best way possible so that I can remove myself from fulfillment.
[00:16:10] Right. And that's the biggest struggle when you do SEO, because like yourself or anyone who's been doing SEO for a long time, the hardest thing to do is to let someone else do SEO. Yeah, totally. Right. It's, it's very, very difficult because we, in your mind, you know, that process, you know what to look for, you know, the nuance.
[00:16:30] Um, And so giving that up is very difficult, especially when it's like what you consider you're like your superpower almost. Um, so for me that was really difficult, but I, I had to get over it. And the way I got over it is I, I figured like, what could I do to like recreate myself as far as SEO goes, right.
[00:16:51] And so I figured the only way that can happen is through systems. So I had to take everything that was out of my mind. And put it into a standardized step by step process that has templates and procedures and all that good stuff. Um, and so that's what I, that's what my training is, is literally the systems I've built over the last 10 years.
[00:17:11] Like I don't even consider my training a course. It's not even a course. It's literally just like. Here's a template. Here's a standard operating procedure. And here's a demonstration of me doing that thing. So I've built it in a way so that like any person that comes on my team can just go right through there and find what they need.
[00:17:27] And when it comes to the training and their team members can go through and learn it. Um, so I'm treating it more like a training mechanism for agencies, but even, even businesses in general. Like if you wanted to build an in house team, it's still the same outcome at the day. So, so yeah, there's a lot we can get into on those different components, but that's kind of, that was kind of like the catalyst for me to build that system was like, I just did not do things the right way initially.
[00:17:54] So yeah, and then I, and then just to kind of add a little more context to it, I was running the agency. Um, and at the time I, at its peak, I was probably, I had like 30 something clients. Um, and probably I'd say when you include independent contractors and in house, I probably had 25 ish people doing things for me.
[00:18:16] Um, but then I made a very, very crazy decision in 20, sweet candy I got very burned out by agency, like I just got super burned out. I had been doing it nonstop for almost five years. I was like, man, I don't, I just did not love the business model a whole lot at that point because it was just like, you've probably experienced this yourself, but what happens is like you, a business hires you, okay.
[00:18:46] And they pay you, let's say they pay you 5, 000 a month to do SEO. Okay. And then I increased their revenue by 5 million, but my retainer stays the same. Yeah. So they grow a thousand percent, but I say the same. So then you think about it like, man, that's weird. Like it's weird that like it would say the same when you just, you know, by a thousand percent.
[00:19:12] Um, so that started to kind of weigh on me too. So I was like, you know what? I need to, I need to take control of my business and I need to create something. I need to create a product. That has unlimited upside, something that I can control, something that I can market and sell, sell and all that good stuff.
[00:19:30] Um, so that's, that was kind of like the Academy. I created the first version of the Academy in 2016. Um, actually the first product I ever created in the SEO industry was called the anchor text Bible. Okay. And I'm sorry. Okay. Yeah. So I, I think I launched that in the 20. 14 or 15. Um, and I, I know. So it's basically a PDF and I was like this intense guide about anchor text optimization.
[00:19:57] Um, and it's sold decently. Uh, but then I didn't do anything up until 2016 when I launched the first version of the Academy. And once again, we can get into that. That was also a big learning experience. Um, and I've gone through many, many iterations of the Academy since then. Tell me about that experience as well.
[00:20:15] Yeah. I mean, so in 2016, I. I was so deathly afraid to be on video. Um, and actually prior to that point, um, I, this is when I was, when my, uh, wife and, uh, best friend were still working for me. We had, um, Yelp. We signed up with the Yelp partner program and they came to, at the time it was my apartment where we were working out of, um, they came there and they wanted to film like a video of us, like a business video, like to you talking about your business basically.
[00:20:44] And so this guy came and like, I thought this was going to be like some production where like things were organized and like, it was going to be, but he comes, he's like, okay, you guys ready to go. And I'm like, ready to go. What do you mean ready to go? Like, I thought we were going to have a script. Like, so literally on the spot, we had to come up with like, Just on the spot about the business.
[00:21:05] And all I can say is when he turned that, that video on me, I felt like a deer in the headlights. I had nothing, nothing was running through there. It was just gone. It was most embarrassing experience at the time. I was like, I could, after it happened, I was like, I will never be on video. Never like I made that I made that declaration.
[00:21:25] I'm like, I am never going to do that again. That was horrible. Um, and actually did kind of do that for a while up until 2016. I didn't touch video and like, I knew video was going to be a big thing at the time. It was clear. YouTube video is going to be a big thing. I didn't care. I was like, no, I'm, I'm good at writing.
[00:21:45] I'm, I'm going to stick to that. I'm going to stick to my, yeah, I'm going to stick to my strength, right? These sometimes the stories we tell ourselves are usually just limiting beliefs, right? And so, so for me, that was my kind of like limiting belief. Like, no, I'm a good writer, so I don't need to do video, which is just not true.
[00:22:01] So, um, so in 2016, going along with that, when I launched the first version of the Academy, I was so afraid of video. I did an all text version of the academy. So I literally like wrote out every single lesson and then put it into like a backend and that was the training. It was terrible. Like that was a terrible experience.
[00:22:19] That was bad for the students. Like. And also I had no clue how to market or sell it either. So I, I think I sold seven at the time. So I launched it and I sold a whopping seven and I was like, Whoa, this, I have a lot to learn about this thing. Um, so one of the things though, I was like, all right, I need to do video.
[00:22:37] I just made that decision. I'm like, I need to get over myself. I need to get over my fear and I need to do video. So. I took baby steps. I didn't go straight into what I do now. I started just doing over the shoulder video, just recording my screen. So I did the first, like I redid the whole academy. And I think the first version with the videos was like a hundred videos of just like going through diff yeah, going through different things, screaming frog and just the whole process.
[00:23:02] Um, but I, at the time did not understand video quality. So the videos sounded terrible, like, and, and audio out of all the Of all the elements of video that people, uh, won't tolerate is audio, right? People will tolerate bad video. It's fuzzy and low quality, but if the, if the audio is off, people will be out.
[00:23:25] So that's, that was kind of the next thing is I actually went back and re recorded all a hundred videos with a better microphone. And I mean, and it was still over the shoulder. So that was like version 3. 0, um, to do that. And then that was the version I went with for a while. And then I was like, okay, I need to make it better again.
[00:23:46] So I did it again. I redid it one more time. Um, and then I started to do a lot better with the marketing side of, of the course. Like I would do this product launch model, which basically I would open it up for a week. I would, you know, close as many deals as I could. And then I would call it and I would close enrollment.
[00:24:04] Um, and if, you know, if you're interested in this, uh, 80 percent of my sales would come on the last day, like without fail. Yeah. Without fail. I open it up on Monday, get a nice little trickle of early sales, middle of the week, basically dead. And then the last day is like just a spite. Um, and then, so I made, I think my best launch, I did six figures in a week, uh, with one of my launches.
[00:24:29] Nice. Yeah. And so that was like, I was like, Whoa, this is, this could be a real business model. But the problem was like the launch model was so stressful. Uh, and like, I was like, I got to make a lot of money in like a day. So hopefully this works. Um, and so it's kind of a scary model to work with, but it's good.
[00:24:46] It has a lot of benefits and the benefit is, is urgency and scarcity. Which gets people to act, right? Because if you just keep it open, Hey, I got a course or Hey, I got a training. I can do it later. Yeah. Yeah. So people, people will procrastinate. Um, so that was kind of learning experience on that from, but then the final piece of this, which is now where I am today.
[00:25:08] Um, I had all these people go through my training. I don't know, maybe a thousand or so people had gone through the training. Um, and I was selling it for about a thousand dollars, roughly, at the time. Um, and I had some upgraded versions where like I would help you one on one. So then maybe it was like three, four thousand dollars for the upgraded version.
[00:25:27] Um, but what I found out is like, I discovered that people who do online courses The, the statistic is that only 10 percent of people actually finished them. So, yeah. Yes. So in my training, I was like, I read that statistic. I'm like, Oh, there's no way that people wouldn't go through my training. Right. Like, Oh, I created the best training.
[00:25:48] Why would they not go through it? And of course I go and look at the backend and I was horrified to see the statistics. Uh, the, the first statistic that disturbed me the most was that like, I wish I could remember the percentage, but it's like 20 percent of people didn't even log in. They bought the training.
[00:26:07] They did not ask you even ask for a refund. They just bought the training and didn't even log in. I was like, what, why? Right. And then I realized what the reason is. There's, there's kind of a psychological reason behind that. And one of the reasons is that when people buy training or courses or education, they believe that they've done something.
[00:26:27] Okay. And that's enough. Yes, it is. It really is. So you buy the training, you get that endorphin rush, you're like, Ooh, yes. I did something like I, I, you know, I look, I, I, I went over the hurdle, I invested my money into this. I invested in myself, right? You did all this stuff and it feels good. The problem is like, it doesn't do anything, right?
[00:26:48] You didn't, nothing changed. You just bought it. You just bought something. It's like me buying a piece of paper. It doesn't do anything like you have to actually do the work. And that's where most people don't want to do it because they, it's a, it's a self limiting belief for them as well. Right. They buy it and they're like, Oh, but you know, I bought ones before and.
[00:27:04] I haven't done it. I haven't done the work. So then like, well, I'll get to it. And then they never get to it. Right. That's a percentage of people. There's also a percentage of people, which is the majority, which is don't finish all of it. Right. They just will do the roughly the 10 to 15%. So for me, my mind was at like 15 percent completion rate.
[00:27:24] So 15 percent of people who would enroll would actually go through the whole training. Of course, this is no shocker. The ones that went through the training were my most successful students, right? Pretty crazy how that works, right? When you actually go through and you commit to it. Um, so for me, I looked at that and I was like, this can't, this can't stay the same.
[00:27:43] Like I can't, I can't honestly sell a training that people don't use. Like I, I need them to go through. I need them to do the work because if they do the work, they will be successful. Just, just what can happen? And so I, I decided that, um, I was going to rebuild everything. Like the program one more time, again, this is probably like the fifth version or sixth version.
[00:28:06] I don't even know what it is at this point. I've done so many versions, but this version is very different. The current version is so different than anything I've ever done. And the one thing that there's a lot of different things. First of all, I went to a custom platform, no more Facebook groups, no more, uh, political debates in groups, no more by the way.
[00:28:25] Uh, we're using, so it's, it's actually on WordPress on our website, but we're using a combination of LearnDash and BuddyBus. Okay. Yeah. I'm asking because I'm also like trying to build something, but I will probably be using Kajabi for that. Okay. So I did have it on Kajabi. Right. Nothing wrong. Yeah. Nothing wrong with Kajabi, by the way.
[00:28:45] It's fine. But I just, I wanted to have an elevated experience because I was going to be increasing the investment. And unfortunately, Kajabi, once again, nothing against Kajabi, but it, it, you, you, it lacks customization. Right. And you, so you can do a lot of the things that you would want to do. And like, for me, one thing I really wanted to add to the program was some levels of gamification.
[00:29:07] Right. I wanted to have some, make it more fun, like get some rewards for what you're doing. You can do that in those platforms. It's really difficult, like super difficult. So I knew the only way to, to handle that was we needed to get full control of the process. So that's why we moved off Facebook, moved off Kajabi and went to a custom build.
[00:29:28] And even now it's not necessarily like the best. Like the, the backend technology may not be the best solution, but it's working for what we have at this point. Um, but for me, so that was part one is like move to a custom platform, custom experience and a community. That's a hundred percent focused on SEO, not like the latest news or the latest debate.
[00:29:51] I don't care about any of that. All I care about is focus on SEO, focus on business, focus on entrepreneurship. That's what the, so we're like. We're like a dictatorship in our group, like that, like it's, if that's all it is, like you go into our group, you're not going to see anything but SEO conversations, not going to see anything but business conversations.
[00:30:09] We just don't tolerate anything else. Um, so that's kind of the first part. Obviously I redid the program as well to make it much more systemized. Cause I found out that most of the people who use my training are SEO service providers, right? So I wanted to make sure they had the nice clean templates, SOPs, everything to make their job way easier.
[00:30:28] Right. So that was, I redid that component. Uh, actually. It's funny. So just one question. So this isn't for people who want to become better SEOs. This is for people who provide SEO services and want to become better at providing, providing those services, like more efficient have systems in place, right? Uh, 70 percent of the people who join are in that, that category.
[00:30:53] Okay. Yes. Yeah. So we have, we have other people who joined who are, you know, DIY business owners, uh, maybe other people who hired other agencies in the past and they didn't have a great experience and they want to bring it in house. We have a lot of those people too. Um, it still works. I mean, the process is the same.
[00:31:11] Um, as far as my, my SEO process. Um, but, but that's kind of just who we tend to attract for the most part and who I tend to help the best. Um, so, uh, so anyway, that's kind of, uh, and then I'm also creating a new version of our, uh, system right now because of obviously what's been happening with AI, it's changed my whole process dramatically.
[00:31:33] Uh, there's so many little things that I've added that, that integrate chat GPT and various AI technology. It's just made the process so much easier. Um, so I'm working on that new version, but the other piece of this, which I believe is like, if you go and look at, not to talk too much about our program, but I just, I, but, um, but, uh, But the one thing I added, which is just for anyone to know this, and this is something I I've realized, um, is so important in business, especially in a day, uh, in this day and age of AI and automation and Hey, I, you know, scale, let's scale as fast as we can.
[00:32:08] And, uh, you know, what I added was something that was not scalable, something that required my time. And it was these coaching sessions. So every Tuesday and Thursday. I get on a coaching session like this on zoom and we have, you know, 30, 40 people on it and I answer every person's question about the training, about campaigns they're working on.
[00:32:29] Um, anything, anything they want to talk about as far as business. We can talk about, right. And so we go in there. Uh, I also share a lot of the tests that I'm doing in the field. So a lot of the SEO tests that I'm seeing things that are working right now, things are not working. I share that with them on the, on the calls.
[00:32:45] Um, but I cannot express how much of a difference this made in the, the. Engagement in the group, the amount of people that complete the training, but most importantly, the amount of people that succeed. Um, and if you go and look at our data now, our completion rate, uh, is like 90 percent training. And it's because that extra component of me actually showing that I care about their success actually makes a big difference, surprisingly.
[00:33:17] Um, so that's what I do. I have to, I think I'm up to almost like 250 of these calls I've done and they're 45 minutes to an hour and a half each call. So I've done like a lot. Um, and so it's, it's made just a huge difference in, in their success. And so for me, I'm always thinking about, because of what I've learned from this is like in business, like what can I do?
[00:33:39] That's going to be, what, what can I do? That's not scalable. That's going to create an incredible experience for my clients. That's it. So with my, I have, I have my partner, Simon, who is really the architect behind the new program because he had a, he had a similar program. He worked with before and he came in and we, we rebuilt the program together.
[00:33:58] Um, and we always talk about like, what can we do that's not scalable, that's going to really be like. That no one else would be willing to do, right? Um, and so always thinking about that, always trying to figure out what that's going to be, and just always obsessing over like what's going to be the best experience for them.
[00:34:16] And we even make decisions sometimes that like, are not financially the best decision in the short term, but in the long run it is the best decision for the client. Um, so like, for example, I have a whole list of people in my training that have invested a lot of money with me. Um, it's a very well known business strategy that you want to sell more to your existing customers.
[00:34:40] Right. But I don't, I'm not, I'm not trying to juice them for as much as I can. They've made their investment in the training, they've paid their tuition and I've just been helping them. Now I have tons of people in the training who paid. two years ago and they're still getting all the coaching. Um, not to say I'm not going to sell things in the future and they don't have to buy it, but it's more of just like thinking about like what's the best experience.
[00:35:04] And there's other programs where it's like you join, it's like, it's cool for the first 90 days and then you get slammed with pitch after pitch after pitch. And it's like, okay, well, I haven't even started with the first thing you gave me. So, um, so anyway, that's, that's. A lot of what I've been working on.
[00:35:20] So I know we can dive into a lot of stuff on that. We talk obviously SEO stuff as well, but just wanted to kind of give you the full picture. Yeah, sure. But maybe can you like in a very huge nutshell, walk me through your SEO process, of course, without, without relieving too much. Yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not afraid because I know my, my systems are so unique to me that it couldn't even be replicated.
[00:35:43] So, um, and I know you have a good SEO audit template as well, so I haven't had a chance to look at it, but I know I've, I've seen some stuff about yours as far as some drama as well. Yeah. We'll, we'll get into that. Yeah. Uh, but, um, but yeah, I think, um, for me it's pretty, at a high level, it always begins with keyword research, right?
[00:36:03] I always start with keyword research because it is truly the foundation of the campaign. Right. Um, you pick the wrong keywords, you go down a very bad path. Yeah, totally. It just is. So, um, so for me, I've been obsessed about getting, like, my keyword research process in place. And the way it works is pretty simple.
[00:36:22] First is find keywords. Okay. We're going to find the keywords. And the only two variations that I'm looking at in this front is, Does the website have existing keywords or is it a site that has no existing keywords? So it's not based on age. It's not based on whether it's new or old. It's just based on do they have keywords or do they not have keywords?
[00:36:42] Because that will determine which direction I go. If they have keywords, which when I say keywords, I mean, are they ranking for keywords in the top 100 of Google? Okay. Um, so you can go into Ahrefs, SEMrush. Um, I know you know this, but for people who are watching, go into Ahrefs or SEMrush, put your domain in there and you can see the total organic keyword footprint that you have.
[00:37:01] Um, so for me, I like really like to start on existing keywords. And the reason is because there's most websites are sitting on a gold mine of opportunity. Right. So like from when I look at it, I look at, okay, we have keywords ranking, uh, in positions two to 15. Okay. That's kind of the first range I like to look at because of, you know, the low hanging fruits.
[00:37:23] Um, because if you have a keyword that's ranking number two, the amount of ROI from going to number two to number one is enormous. It's huge. I mean, most, you know, we can debate obviously CTR studies, but roughly we know at number one, 30 percent CTR. Of course, there's things that influence it could be featured snippets and ads and things that disrupt that.
[00:37:46] But on average, let's say 30 percent CTR for number one. Okay. Number two, that gets chopped to like 15%. So we're talking like a hundred percent decrease in clicks from one position. And that's why I was thinking so funny when people jump into these campaigns are like, okay, what new keywords can we go after?
[00:38:02] I'm like, new keywords. We've got keywords right here. We don't need to go after new keywords. So, and the thing is to get it, it's harder to rank a brand new page than it is to rank a page. It's already Google's already has preference towards Google's already telling you, Hey, you're doing a pretty good job here.
[00:38:19] You know, just got to, you know, manipulate some variables here. So for me, that's where I like to begin two to 15, tackle those ones and try to push those up as fast as possible. Um, and that's what these campaigns, like you push them up, you see a huge influx of organic traffic. Um, and obviously we can talk about which keywords to go after.
[00:38:37] That's a part of the equation as well. But, um, so that's the first part is figuring out, like starting to build out kind of buckets based on the existing keywords. So for me, I call it, you know, low hanging fruits is two to 15, uh, 16 to 50. As far as position, I just call it as existing. Also important keywords, there's a lot of opportunity there.
[00:38:58] And then from position 50 to 100 are what I call clustering opportunities. And the reason I call them clustering opportunities is because my favorite thing to do is to take a page that's ranking in Google for a lot of keywords, put it into Ahrefs, and then see what it's ranking for at a number like 65.
[00:39:16] And what you'll find more often than not is the keywords that are ranking that far back Usually aren't super relevant to that core idea. And usually it's an indication that you need to build a dedicated page to support that, that keyword phrase. So, yeah, so I, I love going back there because usually it's crazy because you'll find all this opportunity to build all these separate assets that are going to support that main asset, which in return makes that asset perform better.
[00:39:43] So that's why I say when people are sitting on a gold mine, it's literally right there for you. It's like for the taking, you don't need to go and use answer the public to tell you it's right there. It's literally right there. So, um, so that's where I like to live. Uh, and then from there, uh, not to get too crazy about keyword research, but so finding the keywords and obviously finding keywords is easy, right?
[00:40:05] Anyone can do that. That's not super difficult. Uh, the question is how do we determine what keywords to actually attack? Well, you know, we have to invest resources into ranking these keywords. You don't want to make a bad decision. Um, and so for me, it's kind of goes find keywords.
[00:40:26] Um, and so the qualification is I'm looking at a lot of different variables, and this is where my system gets a little more complex, but, but a few variables I'm looking at. Number one is intent. I, I always start with intent because keywords that are towards the bottom of the funnel deserve more attention than those at the top of the funnel.
[00:40:45] Naturally, they're going to make you money. So the goal is to make money with SEO. In most cases, there are some other use cases of SEO for reputation management of other things. But you could argue even then that's technically to maybe decrease the amount of lost money from a bad reputation, right? So it always stems back to that core idea, which is money.
[00:41:05] Um, and so for me, I like to start at the bottom of the funnel and build my whole strategy around what's at the bottom. So I, I use like a point mechanism, like a scoring mechanism. So if it's like a bottom of the funnel keyword, it gets a higher score. If it's a top of the funnel informational keyword, what is SEO, you know, type of thing, it gets a lower score.
[00:41:25] Right. Because the likelihood, like if let's use the case of my, my training, right? If someone searches what is SEO, how far are they away from joining my training? Pretty far. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Very far. So, uh, so it gets a lower score, but there's, you, so you could go pretty far just by kind of categorizing based on intent.
[00:41:43] You could do pretty well with that. But I also added another piece to it, which is relevance. Um, and relevance is not like just the relevance of the topic per se. It's the relevance of the keyword to whatever that company's core offer is. So, so for example, if I, if I go for the key word, um, SEO training for copywriters.
[00:42:08] Okay. That's very, very relevant to what I do. Right. So that would get a very high score. So in the relevant score, because I offer SEO training and there's a copywriting part in there. So it's very, very clear. There's a direct apples to apples relevance. Um, but let's say it was best SEO tools. Okay. Yeah, it's relevant.
[00:42:32] It's in the same kind of industry, but it's not, it's not a, it's not going to lead to a direct conversion. So it would get a lower score. And then I just keep progressively going out. And then eventually I get to like, I don't know, uh, let's say what is SEO or just SEO in general? Like once again, Yes, as a whole it is, but not to what I sell specifically.
[00:42:56] Um, so I just keep going through that. And then honestly, if you just use those two metrics alone, you'll be better off than 99 percent of people doing SEO. Like, like that's it, you just intent and relevance and you'll be better. Um, but for me, everything I do is built around making money. Like, I think about what the business wants the most.
[00:43:16] Does the business want a bunch of traffic or does the business want to make money when they invest in SEO? Right. Um, and I, I've just seen this so many times. It's so frustrating. I have these people that when I was still taking on clients, they would come to me. I'd do a discovery call and I'd look at their site and I'm like, Oh, okay.
[00:43:34] They're like, it's always the same thing. We increased our traffic, but our revenue didn't go up. And I'm like, yeah, because you're targeting like stupid keywords that don't have any value just to juice the numbers. And unfortunately, uh, hopefully I hope that the people listening to us don't do this, but if they do, this is a little, uh, warning to you, um, juicing the traffic numbers is purely a play for the agency to appear that they're doing a good job.
[00:44:02] Yeah, totally. Right. It's not actually doing a good job. And very often with link building as well, especially if this is the type of link building. Right. So, so this, this play to like juice the numbers, to make it look good on the charts and make it look good on the graphs. Um, is that's why traffic is totally relative, right?
[00:44:23] Like, for example, I could rank for funny cat pictures and that will get me, you know, let's say hundreds of thousands of visitors per month. But I can also rank for personal injury lawyer in St. Louis, which gets 300 searches a month. Which one is worth more? Yeah. Like it's, it's really obvious which one is worth more, right?
[00:44:42] One personal injury lawyer could be worth a million dollars for one case. The amount of traffic I would need to make a million dollars of funny cat pictures is billions maybe of traffic to make the same amount. So it just shows you the traffic. It's not, it's not a game of traffic per se. It's a game of relevant traffic traffic that has a high probability of converting.
[00:45:04] Um, and so for me, I don't care about traffic. I care about ranking for the keywords are going to increase the likelihood. Of making, of getting good quality leads and closing more deals. Uh, whether that's, you know, in the case of a lead generation based business, like a lawyer or an e commerce business, it's the same, same idea or SAS business.
[00:45:23] Right. It's all, it's all the same. So that's the way that I think about my keyword research process. We're, we're still on keywords. I don't know how long we're going to have. I have a lot, I have a lot that I can share, but. Try to, try to tell me everything in five minutes and then next questions. Yeah. Um, so that's keyword research.
[00:45:44] There's a lot, obviously I can get into on that front. Um, a lot of other variables to consider, obviously like, uh, on the link building side is important to look at too. Like how many links are we going to need to rank for this? Right. And that's links going to the domain as a whole. So looking at the overall strength of the websites that you're competing against.
[00:46:02] Uh, and then also the links going to the specific pages that we're trying to beat. Um, they both need to be considered, right? Because you can't just look at just, like, for example, if you go into Ahrefs and just look at KD, you're only looking at the strength of the, uh, of the page level, but you're neglecting the fact that overall site authority is way more powerful.
[00:46:22] So, um, so that's why looking at that as well. And then looking at other some resource elements to like, how much of an investment in content are we going to need on this as well? Um, sometimes you'll find a keyword that has. Relatively low competition, but you come to find out like a lot of the content is actually good.
[00:46:40] You're like, yikes, like they, they've invested a lot into this content. Maybe they're really, um, like enthusiasts in their niche. So they're like, they understand the nuances of their industry. And like, you're competing with people who like, you don't have that same level of expertise. So that's why you got to kind of consider both.
[00:47:00] Um, and there's other things too, but anyway, keywords. Once we've got that, got that squared away for me, next is audit, which I know is your, your favorite thing to do. Um, so, um, so I won't go too deep into that, but doing a technical audit, uh, for me is really looking at the site as a whole, right? I want to look at the site as a whole and try to find every opportunity that exists.
[00:47:22] Um, and so with my audit process. Um, usually I'd say for a good website, you're probably gonna uncover anywhere between like 900 to a thousand opportunities overall. Um, and that's like, and those are categorized based on what's going to have the highest impact. So for me, I just do it in the kind of like a three kind of part.
[00:47:41] So it's like high impact, medium impact, low impact. Um, high impact would be something like this page has no backlinks. We need to acquire backlinks. Okay. And I'm looking at that based on doing my screaming frog crawl and integrating the, uh, the Google Analytics API, Google Search Console API and Ahrefs API, also Google PageSpeed Insights API.
[00:48:02] So those four. Um, to get the full picture of everything. And really what I'm trying to do is I'm just trying to find broadly the opportunity. Um, and usually what you'll discover in many ways is you're going to find internal linking opportunities to usually a big one. So crawl depth, uh, internal linking, those, those make a big difference.
[00:48:22] Uh, I start to look for keyword cannibalization, but usually that's kind of stems from more of a page level analysis. So I'm not quite at that point, but still broadly, like if I see signs of it, I'm like, uh, I'm gonna start to investigate here. Um, and then looking also just at the content performance as a whole, like page by page.
[00:48:41] So what I'll do is I'll filter through and I'll start with pages that have, uh, you know, zero impressions from, uh, Google search console, zero traffic from Google analytics and zero backlinks. Thanks. Usually most websites are going to find a whole bucket of pages there that probably something needs to happen with those pages.
[00:48:59] Either they need to be deleted in just 404 and just get rid of them completely. Uh, some of them maybe like they just got outdated and, you know, maybe we need to redirect them or upgrade them or whatever it is. And then the other might just be that it just was a bad page. Like it just, it's just yonk.
[00:49:21] Like it just didn't perform. So you need to redo it. Um, so for me, I'm thinking about like, what are the decisions we're going to make? And there aren't many decisions you can make with any given page, right? You're either going to delete it, you're going to consolidate, redirect, or actually sometimes just redirect without consolidation.
[00:49:36] Um, probably only, I'm only going to be redirecting a page if there's some sort of API attached to it. Um, so if there's like existing links, but it has no traffic or impressions, I'll, I'll 301 redirect it to a relevant page. If it has no links and has no KPIs, the only reason why I would do a 301 redirect is if I was trying to solve a keyword cannibalization issue.
[00:49:59] So, because I would want Google to re crawl that and say, Oh, okay, this page is the one that I, that we prefer for blue shoes. Right? So, I will do that for that reason. But outside of that, it's probably just going to get 404'd. If it doesn't have any, any good reason to be. Because every redirect we add just increases the, the server load.
[00:50:20] Right? So, we don't want to do that very often if we don't have to. Um. So content pruning is a big piece of what I like to do. I like to clean everything up. I like to take the trash out because there's just a lot of junk on a lot of websites. I mean, yeah, I, I just did a video on YouTube. This is maybe last week.
[00:50:41] Um, and I did, I just picked a random St. Louis car accident lawyer, just picked a random one. Um, and he had 3, 000 pages on his site and I was like, how could you have 3, 000 pages? That's not even like, it's not, there's no way all that content could be good. It's just not possible to have 3, 000 good pages on your site, unless you have a ridiculously huge team that can, you know, executed that like nerd wallet, for example.
[00:51:09] Right. They could do that. But a solo personal injury lawyer who does not have a content team has 3, 000 pages. It just doesn't work. I saw similar cases with lawyers. Yeah, totally. Right. It's very, very common in that, in that industry, but in many industries. So the point is, is I like to, this is my opportunity to prune, clean things up because the worst thing to do is just like, you've heard the, if you've heard this Warren Buffett quote before, he says like, what's the best way to get out of a hole?
[00:51:36] Well, you stop digging, right? Let's just stop digging. Right. And so that for me, I think of it that way. It's like, we just need to stop digging ourselves deeper into a problem. And let's, and that's the funny thing is when, when. Many of businesses that start SEO campaigns, they don't realize that when you come with all this additional baggage and all of this stuff, like you're not really starting your SEO campaign, you're just trying to get to, let's call it break even, right?
[00:52:06] You're cleaning up all the stuff you're getting to break even. Now, once you're a break even and we've got a good foundation, now we can do SEO. Right. And so that's what I think about is like we're getting ourselves out of the hole, getting a nice foundation. Now we can do the fun stuff. Right. Um, so that's kind of what the audit is just to kind of reveal all of these opportunities.
[00:52:25] Um, on a site wide basis. The reason I specify site wide basis because the next phase of the process is to start to look at individual pages like deeply. Um, and K. So much you can uncover. I mean, just for one, like for, I have this like ranking diagnosis process where I go through and I look at every single variable that Would influence rankings in one way or another from user experience to crawling and indexing to the quantitative side of the content.
[00:52:56] So like actually like where the keyword placement is, the NLP optimization, like things of that nature, um, then getting into the qualitative side of the content, you know, we, we know about Google's helpful content update. Um, looking at a lot of those variables too, like, is this actually the best page for this keyword?
[00:53:16] Right. And for me, I think there's an important nuance on this point is I'm not trying to make the best page that's ever existed. I'm trying to make the best page relative to what's ranking. Yeah, totally. And so, and I think sometimes people get that confused. They think they need to become like Stephen King or something to, you know, to, to rank.
[00:53:35] That's not the case. It's always relative to your competitors, right? Yeah. Love people competition. Yeah. And like, you can go way overboard and over invest in your content when it wasn't necessary. I see people over invest in content. I see people over invest in links. Like there's. There's certain sides of the equation.
[00:53:54] Like there's a side where people way over invest because they didn't study the competition. They did. They could have just done like 50 percent less and still one, which means you would have been 50 percent more profitable. Um, but then there's the other side where people just don't invest in their content at all.
[00:54:10] So it can go either way. Um, but for me, that's kind of like the qualitative side, which. I would say out of all the things that I, I personally thrive in is that side. I'm I'm like the qualitative side of content is really where I thrive the most. Um, so getting that, that part of it and then getting into obviously looking at topic authority as well.
[00:54:32] Um, and so a lot of the times you can get all that, all of that, right. Uh, you can get perfect user experience. You can get great content. You have a unique angle. It's very different than the competitors. Um, it's all the EAT guidelines, you know, all that good stuff. But if you don't have topic authority.
[00:54:50] It's hard to kind of win on that front. Um, and I'm not looking like when I think about topic authority, I like to look on a real granular level. Um, so like, for example, I, I'm just did a video for my training for the keyword, uh, keyword research services, ironically, um, and for that key word, The page that I'm trying to rank has hit all the right points, right?
[00:55:15] It's, it's a unique angle. I tested like 11 different keyword research services. Like I got the experience component of the Google EAT guidelines. Like I got all that part squared away. But when I went through my diagnosis, what I found is. It's the only page on my site that is about keywords and keyword research.
[00:55:32] I don't have any other blog content. It's literally, it's just this one isolated piece of content. And now like Google's smart enough to know like, okay, you talked about backlinks here and you talked about SEO content here and like these things are, you know, in the same realm, but I don't have that pure topic.
[00:55:52] So I need to, to, to be able to rank longterm, I need to really go all in on the keyword research cluster, if you want to call it that, um, and so that's what I think about. I was like, have I, have I really nailed that topic authority? Um, and then outside of that, if I've passed all those, then it's a matter of links.
[00:56:11] Right. Okay. So, um, so that, that's kind of my process that I go through. Okay. Okay. Cool. Cool. Yeah. Very, very long one. A very in depth one. Yeah. Okay. So final question or two. Sure. So you now, what's, what, what is it that you do now? So you do both clients and Gotch SEO? Yes. So I still have a, I still have clients.
[00:56:35] Um, I'm slowly starting to. Phase a lot of them out and kind of give them off to a partner that I have who can handle the campaigns. Um, but like most of my revenue these days is the Academy. So, um, yeah, and I have, we have a, or we've been working on a SAS product too for the last almost a year now. Um, so the trajectory of where I'm going is basically going to be ideally 50 percent Academy, 50 percent uh, SAS, and then however those end up balancing each other out, I don't really care.
[00:57:05] Um, but for me, like I just love. the training side of the business. I really do. Like I, I, it takes zero effort for me to help people with SEO. Like just, I just love it. It's just fun. Um, yeah. And like, it's not the same with client work. I don't feel that way. Like when I, when I feel, when I work on a client campaign, I feel like I'm tied down.
[00:57:28] I feel like I can do what I really want to do. Um, and I don't like that restriction. I like Maybe I'm a control freak. I don't know what it is, but I just like, I don't like being either with my work or with my revenue potential. Um, and when it comes to client work, it's like funny thing is, you know, I'm, I'm selling this, this book here, uh, coming up here.
[00:57:51] And. It's about starting an SEO business. I truly believe it is one of the best business models for people to start like as a beginner, like beginner entrepreneur. It is a beautiful business model. It gives you cashflow. You can take that cashflow and you can reinvest it into other projects. Like I would not redo anything that I did.
[00:58:09] Like I would start exactly the same today. If, if I was starting, I would decline SEO business. Get cash flow, get stability, and then start to invest in other projects that are more scalable. Um, so that's what I would do. Um, so, but for me, like the one thing about client work that is difficult is like a client pays you a budget.
[00:58:30] You got 5, 000 a month. You can only do what's possible within that budget. You can't do more. Like you literally can't or you won't be profitable. Like you need to make money too. So um, and so that's, that's the catch 22. And for me, when I work on SEO on either, you know, let's say gotch SEO or any of my owned assets that I have, the sky's the limit.
[00:58:54] There's nothing like, there's no, there's no stopping, um, to what's possible. So I just like having that, that level of control a little bit more. Um, just to at least achieve my full potential in whatever I'm doing at the day. Yeah. Okay. So I think we would, we'll have to have another, another session more about your things because I have so many questions and we are running out of time.
[00:59:21] Like it is super interesting. So Nathan, what's the best place to find you, to follow you, to connect with you? Yeah. I mean, you can go to gotchaseo. com. That's where a lot of the stuff you'd be able to find. I'm obviously, uh, on YouTube. You can search Nathan Gotch on YouTube. I've got, I think a little over a hundred videos on there now.
[00:59:39] I've been trying to publish like once a week, once, twice a week. No guarantees. Um, and then, uh, Twitter and Nathan LinkedIn also Nathan Gotch as well. So, um, I'm around. I will link. Everything should be linked below by now. Okay, Nathan. So thank you so much for being my guest and for sharing your knowledge.
[01:00:01] And I really hope to have you again in the future. Yeah. My pleasure. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks everyone. Bye bye.
